Boerboel is in a mess

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Over the last 6 years or so that we have been breeding Boerboels, we have seen how much a mess this race is in regarding health issues.

In UK these problems are made worse by the fact that it is very hard to get new blood and healthy dogs into the country.

The result is that breeders are forced to use the dogs they have knowing that there are problems. We know of HD, ED, vaginal hyperplasia, Wobblers and crutiate ligament problems, we also know of other minor problems but we want to address these problems first.

At the moment it seems that the UKBC is bent on exposing the problems of the breeders that are not a part of their clique, and keeping quiet about the problems of the people that proport to support the UKBC.

By attacking the breeders publically, they are splitting the Boerboel scene up into smaller factions that by themselves are too weak to oppose them. This tactic is not helping the issues go away.

We think that a more productive strategy is needed. These problems are not going to go away by themselves and breeders are not going to stop breeding because they are not in favour with the UKBC.

The goal of this board to to provide a place where all are welcome and where constructive cooperation will be recognised as the only functional method to eradication of the health issues. Anne and I can help with our experience, we can give you the benefit of the experience gained by owning more than 100 Boerboels. We will not try to tell people how to run their breeding programs.

We will not talk publically about anything that could be potentially misunderstood or will be misused by board members of the UKBC contacting your customers and twisting the facts.

We want to help solve these problems in UK, in our own breeding program we have been able to get rid of ED, our puppies have an average PennHIP score that is within the best 10% for the race. It is 18 months since we last had a problem with HD. It is just as long since we last had vaginal hyperplasia in a female from us. This year we had:
best female in UK,
best female in Belgium,
best female in Germany
Best male in Denmark and
Best male in Germany.
So the health measures we are taking are not having a negative effect on the conformation. We can all help each other and by doing so, we can all make each other stronger and all breed better Boerboels.

Anne and Shaun

[sandaharr]

I much admire the Pennhip Shaun but I'm afraid it will have to be BVA hips and elbows for us as I won't make my dogs travel for 5 hrs down and 5 hrs back to get Pennhip done.My main thought on this is that I have to put my dogs first and they would not enjoy(nor would I for that matter) a 10hr round trip.If we can get a vet in Central Scotland to take us up on this it would be great but so far any request have been met with silence. Sandra.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

10 hours is a long trip, it is good to see that you are one of the few that do test. If you keep on at the vets, especially those in a larger city where they can get someone to look after their work, you might get lucky


Shaun

[mayahund]

Hi Sandra!

Don't know if this will work for you but I know that due to the swedish vet not getting good enough pics first time around on a male bb that lived in Norway and that travelled about the same distans you mention, the vet made a deal with the owners, he would borrow an friends x-ray machines, wich were situated closer to their home (accualy just across the border) and then they met there and he took new pics.

My tip would therefore be; maybe your penn-hip vet got a friend who's office he could use.

Anyway, if you let me be the judge, I would say any way of testing is a lot better than NOT testing at all. Unfortunatly thats the situation we're up against in Sweden - not one breeder tests for anything.

Regards
Ewa

[bakkies]

I think it´s not only a health issue, I have seen to many BBs with a temperament I do not want to see again.

Fearless, protective without beeing agressive - that´s what I want (and of course a healthy dog). But you have to bred for both.

I have been to an Alano event, the dogs are impressive. They were absolutely non-agressive towards children and strange persons, but you should have seen them acting when their owner was threatened. Woooow, just what I want in the Boerboel.

So any suggestions what we can do about this (I think very serious issue)?

[buliebuse]

Hi again Meike
I agree with the temperament that you specify for a BB.
Alanos are an impressive breed - please may I ask why do they have their ears clipped?
Buse is vey protective & guardy - but & I must stress this, without being agressive. When we are at home anyone can walk in or out etc , but if we are not then she will not let anyone in.
To anyone that comes to our house she is thought of as a big 'softie' - which is great as we often have a house full of small children (Parents can sometimes be a problem) & although I love Buse to bits I could not entertain the idea of having a dog that might bite/become agressive.At the end of the day she is an animal & as all animals can be unpredicatble to the human eye - as long as you are prepared to put in the hard work etc , but also have the common sense to never 'rely' that they will always react in a certain way then I think you can'y go far wrong.
Ju

[helena]

Interesting subject,and great that people can talk about problems in the open.
I have noticed the problems also.
What i have seen.:
Much hip dysplasia in the breed,to much. = (
Many dogs that look different,many untypy? dogs sometimes they look like they have another breed in them.
Much difference in temperament.I have seen:dominant dogs,aggressive dogs,fear aggression.
I totally agree what Meike writes about what she think is proper boerboel temperament.

I think problem is breeders do not work with eachother,and that there is bad breeders out there.I give a big THANK YOU to the breeders that try so hard to breed as good boerboels as they can.Helping puppybuyers and helping the breed.
I have no solution to what can be done,bad breeders will always be out there.And there is always someone that do not know better,that buy puppies from them...

[bakkies]

The problem is that some breeders do not know anything about dogs.

They say that fear biters or dogs that bark in fear are PROTECTIVE towards the owner... I think that is the worst problem of all. There are so many insecure dogs that bark or even bite and some of them are bred because the owner really thinks it´s a good behaviour.

We have to inform the public that this is not a correct Boerboel, even if they say so.

Helena, nice to see you here

Meike

[helena]

Hello there,nice to see you too!
A friend of mine bred Maremmano-dabruzzese dogs.I thought that livestock guarding dogs were untrusty and weird until i met this friend of mine.Her dogs had no problem at all towards people when owners were there.They were EXTREMLY stable.One female she took from the mountains of Italy back with her to Sweden.No problems.This is a dog that only had lived in the mountains.!!
My friend explained that some maremmas were untrusty due to the fact that breeders THOUGHT that this is how the breed were,so they bred dogs twith that temperament.

I believe ALL guard dogs should be very stable dogs.Very sure of themselves,and act only when it is necessary.
I think breeders can only breed confindent dogs,then it is up to the owner to shape the dog futher.
Some dogs are aggressive due to pain.I had a dog like that.Nervous-aggressive,fearful-aggressive.She was also protective.But it is,as you say,difference between aggression and protection.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I think that the main problem is that there is no mandatory test from the registries, all there is is an open ended statement that the temperament is the most important feature of a Boerboel. Every breeder then thinks that they have a dog with the best temperament because there is nothing to tell them otherwise. They then tell their puppy buyers that their dogs have the correct temperament and everyone believes that, and why not, there is nothing to say otherwise.
It is a bit like the hip tests, in South Africa the best score you can get is a 0:0, when that is translated to the Danish system (from "A" to "E"), it turns out that 0:0 can be anything from "A" to "C", "C" is determined as borderline HD. If 2 dogs of "C" are bred, there is just as strong a likelyhood of the hips being worse than "C" as better. When breeding to better the hips, it seems that this sort of system leaves a lot to be desired.

In any litter, regardless of the breeder, the temperament of the puppies will probably range from what is very guardy to what is very friendly. What is most important is to try and match the puppy with the owners needs. Socialisation and training will complete the make-up of the dog. Each breeder will pick the dogs he/she feels are right for his/her breeding or the function that is demanded of the dog.

A Boerboel needs a strong leadership in order to reach it´s full potential and find it´s right place in the pack.

Shaun

[bakkies]

Hi Shaun.

You can work on a lot of things but just to a certain point. You cannot change the temperament that is transmitted by the parents.

But you are completely right. You, as an responsible breeder act like this, so many don´t They fool themselves and the puppy buyers. Registries should make restrictions.

Meike

[sandaharr]

In any litter, regardless of the breeder, the temperament of the puppies will probably range from what is very guardy to what is very friendly. What is most important is to try and match the puppy with the owners needs.
Yes-I agree.We tell prospective owners that we feel they should be guided by us as the breeders as we see the pups interaction every day with each other,the mother,the other dogs,people coming to visit,all different situations etc.Most are happy about this but don't feel happy that they cannot choose their own pup when first seeing them.We have only had one puppy returned but due to a change in the owners circumstances nothing else,she is now extremely happy with a BB male to keep her company. Sandra.

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Shaun as you know we pennhip test our dogs so we are trying to weed out HD/ED.I fully agree also that in a litter of puppies there will be varying temperaments.We try to match the puppy with the owners where ever possible and we also try to establish whether the people who come to buy are suitable owners.There have been several people who we considered unsuitable owners and gladly passed on their details to other breeders.We can socialise our puppies and expose them to all sorts of things like noise,strange objects and lots and lots of humans.What is needed then is for the new owners to continue our good groundwork.Unfortunatly once the puppies leave us it is out of our control despite the fact that part of our sales contract states that they will keep in regular contact and discuss any problems they encounter so that we can assist them where necessary.All our puppy owners know we are on call 24/7 for the life of their Boerboel.Sadly some do not keep to their end of the bargain.Happily most do.This is why we are happy to discuss our breeding program with yourselves and to take your advice on suitable matings.This has enabled us so far to produce healthy Boerboels for the UK.Regards Paul.

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Shaun I must also add that despite hosting litters for yourselves in order to open up the gene pool here in the UK all we have ever had from UKBC posse as I call them is constant bad mouthing,unconstructive critisism,no helpful advice,no support and lies told about our dogs.The good thing is we were here before them and we shall still be here when they have long gone.Regards Paul.

[temwani]

Hi Everyone,

We have just started to use a new vet. She has just set up her own practice and was keen to become qualified for Penn Hip - but got nowhere in trying to find out how to and what the cost would be. The vet in Nantwich was unhelpful and she said she didn't get anywhere with penn hip themselves. We thought considering the number of dogs we have to test and that hopefully our local puppy owners would also go there - that financially it ought to be a good move for her. And save us the trip to Nantwich which means taking time off work.

But at least it's much nearer for us than you Sandra.

Geri

[sandaharr]

I've tried to persuade 3 different vets to go down this route but they say there is no need as the BVA system is excellent!

[mayahund]

In any litter, regardless of the breeder, the temperament of the puppies will probably range from what is very guardy to what is very friendly. What is most important is to try and match the puppy with the owners needs. Socialisation and training will complete the make-up of the dog. Each breeder will pick the dogs he/she feels are right for his/her breeding or the function that is demanded of the dog.

A Boerboel needs a strong leadership in order to reach it´s full potential and find it´s right place in the pack.

I so totaly agree with you on this and still I see how bb breeders over her pass the bb off as everything from labradors to vicious/mad pits. All done just to make the buyer believe they got the dog they wanted.

It's sad to see that the interest in the breed are growing with such a speed when people obviously doesn't n´know what they are buying and when it comes down to hard facts - in many cases they don't have a breeder that stands behind them to help them in many cases. Sometimes because they just haven'nt got a slightest clue themselfes as to what they got in they're frontyard themselfes!

Ewa

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Ewa as breeders we try to match the dog with the new owner as much as possible but some will just not listen and will still choose the puppy they want.We also make it part of the sales contract that they keep in regular contact and report to us straight away if they experience any problems they may be having.They all know we offer help and advice for the lifetime of the dog and that is 24/7.Most puppy buyers do keep in touch but some do not.If they ask we will help but if they dont then we cannot help.We also will not put to sleep any dog with problems untill we have tried everything possible to overcome these problems.We also try to educate prospective buyers that the Boerboel is a medium to large guarding/protection dog and not a labrador and that they should not be expected to behave like one.Regards Paul.

[mayahund]

I'm glad to hear you do your best. Unfortunatly the situation in Sweden is in NO WAY the same. And i am seriously worried that quite a few bb's been put to sleep due to "aggression" over here.

Ewa

[temwani]

Hi Ewa,

Sadly the same happens over here already and several have been put to sleep on the advice of other BB owners. In fact Oubie came back to us because his owners were told to have him put to sleep because they could't handle him. When he arrived back he was immediately ok with us but had been taught to lunge at strangers and encouraged to play bite at faces as a puppy. He is ok off the lead being introduced to dog friendly but sensible people but difficult on the lead. He really needs a one-to-one owner with lots of time to re-train him but at least he is still alive and he is quite content living as a kenneled dog. I love him to bits and he gives me great cuddles.

Sadly too many people over here spoil their dogs and are then surprised when the dog takes over. This is true of many breeds, it is just much more of a problem when it's a dog as big as a BB.

Geri

[helena]

"Sadly too many people over here spoil their dogs and are then surprised when the dog takes over. This is true of many breeds, it is just much more of a problem when it's a dog as big as a BB."

That i too true.Many breeders want puppybuyers to be kind and good to their puppy,but kindness can also lead to problems.
I have a theory.
1:exercise.
2:Obedience/including leadership
3:praise,love.

To many people seem to think that only love will get a good dog.
It can result in a problem dog.
Too little exercise can cause dogaggression,overly territorial behaviour etc.
And obedience,lack of it,or done wrong can also cause harm.
A boebroel is a dog,and like all dogs it need exercise obedience and love.And you have a happy dog.

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Helena that seems to be a good formula for a happy dog.I have started taking Ralph for some professional training under expert guidance and in just three weeks the trainers have noticed how he is more relaxed and confident.He is also very friendly.Mind you I think the training is as much for me as him.Not only are we told to give our dogs certain commands but are also told why we command them in such a way.It is one thing to read every book in the library but in my opinion there is no substitute for hands on experience.
Regards Paul.

[jenny]

Can I give you all a slightly different take on the dogs here in my part of S.A.
I live in a farming area where Boerboels are still kept by farmers as working dogs. The dogs are generally not kept as pets and need to be cheap to run (doing well on poor quality food and no vet bills!) and have to protect their owners, their families and property from serious crime.
These dogs are hard. They are hard in condition and hard in nature, they do not suffer fools easily and have the intelligence to make their own decisions. The owners have respect for their dogs and value them on a different basis to how I have valued dogs in the past. They actually don't care much what the dog looks like, so long as it acts as a deterrent. They have become aware of the shortcomings of dogs bred by "breeders" and are now not buying their dogs from them, but waiting for another farmer to have a litter from his working dogs that they know and respect. I have one of these dogs, bred on a farm from working farm dogs. He is not what I'd call perfect in conformation, his stifles are a bit straight, his muzzle is too short, he is a bit too big, his croup is a bit steep, as I say not perfect, but he is THE most effective guard dog, he is an affectionate family pet and he is sound. He doesn't suffer from any weakness whatsoever either in temperament or physique and his musculature is second to none. I have a queue of farmers at the gate waiting for puppies from him, they won't come in because they fear this dog and that's what they want! A dog that keeps them safe. How does this dog and dogs like him fit into the perceived ideal for the breed? He was appraised by EBBASA and given a score of 82.4% and immediately placed on their register, despite some blanks in his pedigree, but this dog is not a dog for fun events, he is not a dog who will accept strangers easily, you cannot stroll up to him and pet him if he doesn't know you, in all he is a very serious piece of kit and he does the job he was designed for, despite his obvious faults. Should this dog be used at stud? Yes, say the farmers, no say the SABT, as they now have a closed development register and the dog does not have a birth certificate (his parents do, but they were not appraised, farmers can't be bothered with all that). The dog's pedigree goes back to the "original" dogs used to found the breed , only five generations back, this is the "original" Boerboel in my view, undiluted by whim or fashion or money.
I honestly feel that this dog and dogs like him could be a real problem in the wider context of the breed if they get into the wrong hands, but aren't they really what the breed was or should be? Hard, healthy and capable dogs, selected for health and ability from generations of working dogs with no regard for politics or personal status. It seems to me that the breed is being changed (ruined some might say) by people concerned only with their own agendas and financial gain who choose to forget the origins of the dogs and attempt to make them suitable for every environment in the race to sell puppies, when clearly they were never designed for this.
I would appreciate your views and comments.

[jannikbb]

amazing post jenny, really interesting read, he sounds like a great dog to be proud of. i often feel my boy wouldn't have settled well in a home that didn't keep on top of him, he is also very large and a rather enthusiastic 'shall i say' guard dog. but i wouldn't swap him for all the tea in china, and would love a male pup from him in the future, in fact i'd just love a clone of him when he's really old.
i know what you mean about posting pics i've given up trying jan

[mayahund]

It is really interesting to read about how things are in the homeland of the breed. I also understand the need for a sharper dog in a country like S.A.

To me it sounds like you've got yourself a "real" bb. To me health and ability to do the job will always come before beauty.

I would like to hear more about him though (and see pics of course;) Whats he like if friends come over for visit? Can you take him with you to town for ex.? Is he a dominant dog and do you have to be on top of him 24/7?

These dogs that the farmers breed, do you know enough off them to tell if they vary in looks and temperament as much as they do up here, were they all got a "pedigree" and an organization behind them!

More questions will come...
Ewa

[bakkies]

Jenny can I use your post for my homepage - that´s very interesting, thanks for sharing! I agree with you on all points! I think we must remember that we have dogs that are bred for certain purposes. If we do not want certain behaviours than we have to choose another breed.

[jenny]

Hi
Please feel free to use anything I post including pictures, I would be honoured if you thought about putting it on your website. Just please credit any pictures with Bob's name as he is the star here and he's just called Bob or Robert when he's in trouble!

To answer some questions about Bob, no he's not immediately friendly to anyone he doesn't know, we are careful when people come to the house. I have an outer and inner fence, so that when someone comes in they are kept out of the house area until I let them in. If the dogs are introduced to people once they are in and sitting down, there is not a problem, but getting people in through the inner gate if the dogs are present, is. I usually remove the dogs, get the people in, then let the dogs out again. A bit of a palaver, but rather that than an accident!
I do walk Bob on the beach sometimes, but most people stay away because of his "stance" he is intimidating!
Taking bob to the vet is a trial, he really doesn't like it, I think he feels "out of control". We find it best if Tony (hubby) takes his lead and I go in first as otherwise, he guards me from the vet and assistants. Not very helpful!
Bob broke his front leg over Christmas and of course had to go to the vet, I was surprised at how he allowed them to X-ray him (without anaesthetic), lift him and treat him, almost as if he knew this was necessary. I do use a muzzle though, I don't honestly think he would bite someone who was trying to help him, but I won't take chances with such a powerful dog.
When he was appraised, I did explain to the appraisers that they would not be able to touch him and they said that this was perfectly o.k. They got within 2 metres and were met with a low growl that made your hair stand on end! No mistaking the meaning "Don't come any nearer". He did settle enough to allow Tony to walk him around the appraisers touching their legs, but this was not possible with me on the end of the lead as he sees me as his responsibility and will protect at any cost. Makes me feel extremely safe wherever I am on the farm, night or day. The appraisers told me that this was the perfect temperament for the breed and found it totally acceptable, a bit different from dog showing where any sign of aggression (a growl) means instant dismissal.
I trust Bob, I trust him with my life, but I don't take any risks with him with other people, although once he knows someone and has accepted them, they are always remembered and greeted as friends, however long it is since they last visited. Good memories these dogs, I do know of instances here where people have been bitten by a Boerboel two years after doing something nasty to it as a puppy! Another story for another day!
These dogs protective instinct is based on loyalty and love, not innate aggression. Will post some more stories from S.A. over the weekend.

[abel]

jenny said:

I do walk Bob on the beach sometimes

photo's please ! ;D

excellent contribution indeed, thank you - your description of Bob reminds me of our Lucy, very protective at all times, and her attitude towards strangers (also outside our premesis) also influences Abel. And there's only one vet that she allows close.
At home (in the garden) she's friendly after the 'stranger' is introduced to her. Out and about she feels the need to show other dogs who's the boss ...
Our Abel on the other hand is more protecting our ('his') territorium, a bit vocal sometimes, and outside it he's a very friendly dog, playfull to other dogs.

Albert.

[buliebuse]

Hi Jenny
Very good posts.You seem to do the same as we do with Buse - in that we have a partitioned garden.Once she's shut up - normally after a minute when no-ones taking any notice of her we let her in to meet & greet & all is well.I also agree with every aspect of what you posted about temperament - even though here in the UK they tend not to be used as they would in SA, I still am comfy in the fact that I know Buse would defend myself & the family no matter what need be.
Both of mine are kept as pets - but that does not mean they are allowed on furniture, upstairs etc & they know their place.If they get out of line , they are punished, in the same vein as you would punish a naughty child.To you guys out there who have met my 2 children - I don't think they have suffered from this approach.
It is also refreshing to know that if neither myself or hubby are in the house, Buse will not let anyone in & this has been proven on more than 1 occasion.I did not get a large 'guard & protect' dog to turn them into a labrador.They do what it says on the tin - & if anyone thinks they can change a BBs nature then they are sadly mistaken & asking for trouble.
Just MHO
Ju

[jenny]

I think the difference in temperament between Europe and S.A. is probably dictated to a certain degree by the dog laws. I know in the U.K. that a dog doesn't need to even touch someone to be prosecuted under the dangerous dogs Act, the person just has to be frightened that it might! A load of rubbish in my opinion! A more sensible approach would be for potential owners of the supposed guarding breeds to be trained and tested before they can own such a breed and then licensed. The license then would have to be produced when buying/selling or transferring a dog. People are the problem, not the dogs.
Here it is somewhat different, although we do have dog laws, in practice it works on the basis that if your dog bites someone on your property that is securely fenced and that person was not supposed to be there, then tough! Therefore the dogs here tend to be quite open in their displays of "deterrent" and it is needed. I would much rather that my dogs deterred someone from entering the property at all, rather than deal with them once they are inside! It's quite strange coming from the U.K. though, if we are asked here "is it a good dog" the answer yes, means it bites! A "bad dog" here is one that doesn't!
When I'm out walking, if I'm asked "does he bite?" the answer is always yes (he hasn't actually - yet) as word soon gets around that our place is occupied by a savage beast and we are left alone! Negative publicity in action!
I might add that Boerboels here are two a penny, walk down any street and you will see dozens of them, some really nice dogs, others almost unrecognisable but they have been purchased as Boerboels, so that's what they are! They come in all shapes, sizes and colours and their temperaments are as varied, most are unregistered with any breed society, just dogs doing a job. We do have a problem with dogs attacking people and causing severe injuries and deaths, generally (and it can be hard to generalise when people are dead) the problem has been caused by bad ownership, ignorance and cross-breeding with other incompatible breeds to produce a "hair trigger" dog. But in some cases pure-bred, registered dogs have been at fault and it is something that needs to be carefully considered when buying or breeding dogs out here. The main problem here as anywhere else, is the dogs being owned by the wrong people for the wrong reasons, not helped by the fact that Boerboels can be bought for £50 or less and therefore are "disposable". Very sad for the dogs and tragic for those who lose children or who carry the scars of this negligence.