Normans questions and thoughts

[nepstein]

As far as I know, I have taken a Boerboel further in a dog sport (schutzhund) than anyone else in the USA and I am here to tell you learning how to teach a dog obedience is not rocket science, any body can do it Obedience is just how best to communicate to your dog what you want. That said all dogs come with different drives and different degrees of particular drives. Think of it this way, each dog comes with a tool box (drives) some have a complete set some do not. It is up to us to determine which drives (tools) there is to work with. The second thing we have to accept is dogs are not brilliant in the way we think but they are in the ways necessary to endear themselves to us. Why? Because we have been selecting for that ability since we first started to domesticate dogs thousands of years ago and because of that they can read us better than any other animal can. For example dogs are the only animal that can be directed by our eyes. Try just looking at your leash without moving, just before you usually take your dog out and watch your dogs reaction. Chimps who are a hell of a lot smarter than dogs can not be directed by a humans eyes. Therefore in order for dogs to effectively learn they need to see our face. Dogs have difficulty seeing certain colors so having toys in those colors can be a hindrance if we are using them for a reward. Dogs schedules are instinctively set up to match ours, they know when we are coming home when we usually wake up, they can recognize our car engine over all others. Why? Because we are there world. They have the cognitive ability of a three year to five year old child but like us there are exception and of course we all own those exceptions(g). DOGS ARE NOT HUMAN AND DON’T RESPOND IN THE SAME WAY AS WE DO. The worst mistake that is made by us is trying to make a dog your child. Dogs are not satisfied being treated like a child, but unfortunately we selfishly may be, in fact it is confusing for them. When this happens they may act out just like a child would without explicit boundaries, by keep pushing until they hopefully force us to set up those boundaries and then we must be consistent in enforcing those boundaries. Then they all the sudden become sane because for them their world now make sense.

In order for a dog to learn we must communicate to them EXACTLY the moment they performed the behavior we wanted. A second to soon or late confuses the dog in knowing what you want from him. If you reward for this behavior consistently the dog will learn what it has to do to get the reward. This is how all service/assistance dogs are taught to turn on lights or pick up what we drop etc. etc.. They are all taught with food and then reinforced with praise. Most of us praise our dogs for everything they do, hence because of its overuse praise in and of itself does not have the same instructive power as food does. Why? Because it’s not, for the dog, that special. Much like a group of toys on the floor, put a new one down and all the dog can think about is that new toy. Food drive is a primitive one and because of that should be utilized when possible. Don’t think so give your dog a chicken wing or a piece of raw meat and then try to get it away from him. If your dog does not have sufficient food drive it is not hungry enough. Moreover the correct timing of the reward with food is far more efficient in shaping a behavior. Think of it this way we are trying to teach a behavior, every time we see the behavior we lavishly praise our dogs. What happens, the concentration of the dog is impeded and we then have to start over again in an effort to regain it. What if we just use praise and we are trying to get the dog to perform a behavior faster, what is left? Only praising more vociferously? Food in your hand can be, if used correctly, be like an invisible leash. Yes in the beginning you are bribing the dog but so what you are also teaching the dog. Hell you bribe your children don’t you. Later the food goes out of your hand and you then teach the dog the position gets it the reward. What is the result a dog that won’t leave you when there is no leash and a dog that works with joy and CONCENTRATION. Moreover if obedience is just taught with just praise there is usually a lot more handler help required because that part and parcel of the *body cues* the dog now recognizes as part of your communication. With food we can keep body posture out of the teaching equation and by keeping going we can cause the behavior to repeat itself many more times while all the time rewarding that behavior. This is teaching. Then praise and play with your dog and start again. So now the dog can have that behavior reinforced many more time than if you only used praise. Now you can get a dog to do anything by force but if you want the dog to do work out of joy, compulsion for teaching is not the way to go. The art of teaching obedience (timing for reward) should first be taught to the handler first and many times before the dogs is ever brought into the mix. The handler has to be taught not to be so ridged but have lose body posture and learn to smile while teaching because your dog is looking at your face and if he sees a frown all the “good dog* in the world will not supersede that expression, and no sunglasses, remember they are looking at your eyes and if they don’t see them there learning is hindered. Now obedience becomes a game with a few rules and is something the dog looks forward too. Think before you train, just what am I trying to teach today and don’t teach to much and if thing are not going as you planned stop and think how can I better communicate with my dog. It is not there fault because every wrong thing they do, was taught to them by you. Keep it fun and remember if it doesn’t make sense to you it won’t to your dog.

Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Storming Norman dearset
did you really have to post this Epic twice ?
Ju

[countryboy]

HI Norman, Have read many of your posts with great interest. I have a couple of questions if you don't mine?

1. What is it about the Boerboel you find so good?

2. Is there another breed of dog that you are so passionate about?


Simon

[nepstein]

Ju wrote"
Storming Norman dearset did you really have to post this Epic twice ?

Well Ju not everyone scours this site as proficiently as you. Moreover I thought the post was important enough given that so few ever post training information, except how to gate and stack (g). Again I apologize for the length of the post but not everyone has a short attention span LOL. Norman

[nepstein]

Simon, I will give you an opinion on the mastiff rather than my opinion on the Boerboel because the Boerboel doesn’t yet IMO have a unique behavior that would separate it from most well bred (fill in the blank) mastiffs. A correctly bred mastiff for the most part doesn’t have rank issues with there owners and that lack of rank also makes it possible that many can live together in a pack, the mastiff doesn’t require a lot of exercise, and doesn’t need a lot of mental exercise to be content. Has, for the most part, good guarding instinct and if not overweight can be very athletic for a large dog. I found mine to be biddable but did not have the work ethic of herder’s but that is understandable given how and why breed stock has been selected. They are very attuned to there owner but because of that require more interaction with them than other types of working breeds. They are very gentle with there family and unlike a working herders are more easily kept in a home.

My breed of choice is a German Shepherd Dog but even finding one of them that is IMO a true GSD is getting very hard. Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

All dogs are born with an instinktive knowledge of rank order. That can be seen in wild dog packs and if a dog has lost that it has been bred in the wrong direction. It has been turned into a couch potato.

It is very seldom the dog there is something wrong with if there are rank problems. It is the owner who does not know how to be a pack leader and then the dog will try to take that position, not because it is a bad dog but in the dogs world a pack must have a leader and if the owner is not the dog will be.

A Boerboel is nothing like "a correctly bred Mastiff". It has a very clear understanding of pack order and a dog that understands pack order is much easier to handle as it will work to keep the rank in the pack. It is a working breed with a lot of natural dog instinkt and dog language and it LOVES mental exercise.


Regards
Anne

[buliebuse]

Norman
I can't help it if I was a goldfish in a previous life !
Ju
PS Looking forward to coming back as a man next time - how easy a life do you guys have ?

[countryboy]

Norman

Can see why you like mastiff's in general. How you sum them up is exactly why i really enjoy my Hunter kennel Neo. I was curious about the passion with which you write for the Boerboel. Perhaps I've missed post's about other breeds? It seems you really have the bit between your teeth anything boerboel related.
There nothing deeper to the questioning, like i say was just curious.

I've found all the posts very interesting

Simon

[nepstein]

Anne wrote in part:
“All dogs are born with an instinktive knowledge of rank order. That can be seen in wild dog packs and if a dog has lost that it has been bred in the wrong direction. It has been turned into a couch potato”.

Of course Anne I agree but that is not the issue at hand. All dogs are born with many characteristics and or traits and all derived from the wolf but certain traits were selected first for certain functions which then went on to identify certain breeds. Until the advent of dog shows all breeds were defined by their function and not what they looked like, ah, the good old days. My point was, not that rank order doesn’t exist it was that rank order is not as predominant in the mastiff breed as it is in the herding breeds hence they are more easily kept in packs.

“According to S. Coren, author of "The Intelligence of Dogs", there are three types of dog intelligence:
• Adaptive Intelligence (learning and problem-solving ability). This is specific to the individual animal and is measured by canine IQ tests.
• Instinctive Intelligence. This is specific to the individual animal and is measured by canine IQ tests.
• Working/Obedience Intelligence. This is breed dependent”.

Based on dog trainer’s survey he reported that the best security dog was the Bullmastiff breed and the mastiff type was ranked 12th petrix.com/dogsec/security.html but conversely the Bullmastiff ranked sixty ninth out of seven nine breeds as far as working intelligence and trainability petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html, If the mastiff and or Bull Mastiff, as you suggest, loves mental exercise why this result. I used the Bullmastiff because a correctly bred Bullmastiff it is very close to the Boerboel in type and temperament and if fact was used in there development.

Anne wrote in part:
A Boerboel is nothing like "a correctly bred Mastiff"

This from the AKC web site on the temperament of the Bullmastiff,
“Fearless and confident yet docile, the dog combines the reliability, intelligence, and willingness to please required in a dependable family companion and protector” This same description is applicable for most any mastiff including the Boerboel. So then, would you be so kind as to point out the large differences in behaviors of say a Bull Mastiff and a Boerboel or a mastiff type and a Boerboel, It being understood that I don’t mean show examples but those selected for function. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Perhaps then Norman dearest
You might have been a horse in a previous life LOL
Ju

[nepstein]

Thanks Simon for your reply. The reason I have the "bit" between my teeth regarding the Boerboel is because I hate to see another breed destroyed by the beauty breeders who know little or care about favorite sires, COI's and the genetic drift of this breed. You could, in all of my posts, replace Boerboel with any working breed today and be as accurate. You might want to go to youtube and in the search block put in normandavidepstein and this will take you to some videos of my training a GSD pup. Norman

[nepstein]

Ju wrote in part
PS Looking forward to coming back as a man next time - how easy a life do you guys have ?

Then as a young lad try walking back across the dance floor after the girl said no. (g) Regards Norman

[mayahund]

Sept 9, 2008 14:48:44 GMT nepstein said:

. The reason I have the "bit" between my teeth regarding the Boerboel is because I hate to see another breed destroyed by the beauty breeders who know little or care about favorite sires, COI's and the genetic drift of this breed. You could, in all of my posts, replace Boerboel with any working breed today and be as accurate.

I admire your stamina to keep on defending the bb year in and year out Norman. I'm only sorry we're fighting a loosing battle.
Ewa

[buliebuse]

Norman
I am the white equivalent of Tina Turner when dancing absolutely no rhythm whatsoever, so you'd never catch me on the dance floor - just the bar
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju, Tina Turner, no rhythm? You must be referring to another Tina Turner. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Have been advised by Jand that these dogs will no longer be available to those who live in Switzerland.. where will the next place be.. some of these are well known working breeds…once the list is started.. it will be added to.. will the Boerboel be next??

www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/Three_dog_breeds_added_to_Geneva_blacklist.html?siteSect=104 <http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/Three_dog_breeds_added_to_Geneva_blacklist.html?siteSect=104&sid=9724749&cKey=1221492127000&ty=nd> &sid=9724749&cKey=1221492127000&ty=nd

September 15, 2008 - 4:59 PM
Three dog breeds added to Geneva blacklist Bullmastiffs, Thai ridgebacks and French mastiffs – also known as Bordeaux bulldogs – have been banned in Geneva because they are potentially vicious. Regional authorities on Monday added the three breeds to a list of dogs considered too dangerous to keep as pets. Fifteen breeds are now banned in the canton.
The new law is not retroactive for pets already in the canton, but those who own the breeds must report them to local veterinary affairs offices.
The move comes after Geneva residents in February voted overwhelmingly in favour of banning vicious dogs following highly publicised attacks on children. Other cantons have also banned breeds of vicious dogs, including Fribourg and Valais.
In August 2006 a child was disfigured by a pitbull terrier in a Geneva city park. In 2005 a six-year-old boy in a Zurich suburb was mauled to death by three pitbull terriers.
Other banned breeds include Rottweilers, pitbull terriers and American Staffordshire terriers.

Besides type what to those breeds have in common with ours? They do not have a testing program so, the good and bad are lumped into one easy pile for elimination. You guys are making so easy for them and when it happens I can hear the what ifs and we should've, now. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

How did we get here and where do we get out?

We can’t look to those who put this breed in these dire straits to lead us out, because they either don’t know how or don’t care enough or don’t want to recognize what they have done by their inaction. If our breed associations don’t get together now, given the abundance of physical and political evidence that our breed is in big trouble, IMO we owe them nothing. If all they want to do is officiate appraisals and we go to those appraisals and by the act of going giving them tacit approval of their methods and leadership nothing will ever change for the better. As soon as we recognize that fact the sooner we can formulate a plan that will in fact improve this breed. Everyone by now should know what has to be done but the unfortunate thing is those same breed associations have kept the necessary information in order to aid breeders, to themselves, and now we know why. They knew, we who care would have to come crawling to them in order to get it. You see it has always been about power and not about the breed. Some in those organizations do care but more of them do not. If more did we wouldn’t be here. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

I hear that Dog's World & the RSPCA have pulled out of Crufts - can anyone confirm?
Regards
Ju

[nepstein]

RSPCA pulls out of Crufts in protest at 'deformed' dog breeds



Published Date: 16 September 2008
By CLAIRE SMITH
IT is billed as the Greatest Dog Show on Earth and is watched by millions on television.

But Crufts has found itself at the centre of a storm over allegations the battle for Best in Show is putting the health and well-being of dogs at risk.

Yesterday, the RSPCA announced it was pulling out of running stalls at Crufts because of fearADVERTISEMENT

s that thousands of pedigree dogs are suffering due to genetic defects and inbreeding.

Chief veterinary adviser for the RSPCA, Mark Evans, called for a shift in emphasis away from looks and towards health, welfare and temperament.

"Dog shows using current breed standards as the main judging criteria actively encourage both the intentional breeding of deformed and disabled dogs and the inbreeding of closely related animals," he said.

"There is compelling scientific evidence that the health and welfare of hundreds of thousands of pedigree dogs is seriously compromised as a result.

"From a dog health and welfare perspective, such shows are fundamentally flawed and do our much-loved pedigree dogs no favours. Intentionally breeding deformed and disabled animals is morally unjustifiable and has to stop."

The move follows the airing of a BBC programme, Pedigree Dogs Exposed which featured boxers with epilepsy, pugs with breathing problems and bulldogs that were unable to mate.

Mike Flynn, chief superintendent of the SSPCA, said hundreds of Scottish owners had called the organisation after seeing a cavalier King Charles spaniel with syringomylia – a condition where the brain is pushed back into the spinal chord.

"We had hundreds of calls from people who told us their dogs were showing the same sort of behaviour as that in the programme – scratching and rubbing their heads against walls.

"People said they had no idea – they just thought that is what King Charles spaniels did."

Libby Anderson, the political director of Advocates for Animals, said the welfare of some pedigree dogs had been a concern to activists for some time. "People have always bred animals but it has gone too far and created terrible welfare problems."

Yesterday, the Kennel Club, which runs Crufts – to be staged next March – said the RSPCA's comments were "unhelpful". But its own figures reveal one in ten pedigree dogs suffers problems that affect quality of life.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club spokeswoman, said: "The Kennel Club is dedicated to improving the health and welfare of dogs through responsible breeding.

"The fact that the RSPCA continues to make such unhelpful statements … is extremely regrettable but we will continue to endeavour to work with them despite their stated position, for the benefit of dogs."

DACHSHUND: Old prints show a small powerful dog with strong hind legs, but today the breed has a bizarrely elongated body and tiny legs. Serious back problems are common and inbreeding has made epilepsy and deafness common. Running and jumping are difficult for today's dachshund.

BULLDOG: The most iconic of breeds is unrecognisable from the fighting dog of the 19th century. Bulldogs today are prized for a short muzzle, which creates breathing problems. Their massive heads and narrow hips mean bitches cannot give birth naturally but only by Caesarean section.

BASSET HOUNDS: Almost unrecognisable from the stocky terrier-type dog of old, today's basset hounds are bred to have huge floppy ears and a heavy body on unnaturally short legs. Bone and joint problems are common and the heavy flaps of skin can become infected.

[buliebuse]

Storming Norman Dearest
Was that a yes?
Regards
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju please read the first line of the article, via my post. I could have just posted the answer but I thought the article would be of interest, as it explains why the RSPCA pulled out. FYI those reasons also apply to the Boerboel. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Two questions. One, how big is too big, or does it really matter given the fact the Boerboel today is a working breed in name only. And two do you believe the Boerboel collectively can perform the tasks as well as it always could it just they aren't asked, and if you believe that, anecdotal stories aside, what is your proof. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Storming Norman
How big is too big - you are asking the wrong woman! LOL!
Seriously, in my tiny little mind, if the dog is healthy, no matter whether big or small thats great.It depends on how far as ref the KC we are prepared to observe the 'standards' etc set out by SABT & Ebassa.
As regards a 'working' BB, I would agree with Anne that it is instinctive in this breed.Like with children not all are the same though.
My son is very academic - 11 A*s GCSEs - but has absolutely no common sense.My daughter is not academic but she is very artistic , but has common sense.Does that make one of my children better than the other?
Regards
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju wrote in part:

Seriously, in my tiny little mind, if the dog is healthy, no matter whether big or small thats great.It depends on how far as ref the KC we are prepared to observe the 'standards' etc set out by SABT & Ebassa.

Observe the standards? Your above would have more validity if the standards were fashioned because they inured to the benefit of the dog, unfortunately they do not, they are structured for the benefit of the show breeder and the show breeders want. For example the SABT recently removed the height restrictions on males but left them on females. Why did the SABT feel that this change was necessary? And why just on the male? Was this change necessary to benefit the breed i.e., make them more agile or improve their movement because of their historic function as an all-round farm dog (g), or was it done, with very little controversy I might add, for the benefit of breeder and market place? That is the reason that all show dogs are significantly larger than there working counterparts. I won't even go into the deleterious changes that were made that allowed less healthy dogs to be in the stud register. I ask this once and do so again, at what point do we stop tweaking this breed? When is enough, enough? Of course the answer is never because tweaking a breed is an erogenous zone for those who fashion a breed for the show ring and or for what is popular at a given time. Let me remind you again that correct form follows function, not a committee. These changes in our standard and changes that many have noted in the phenotype of our breed are more easily put in place and accepted when the preponderance of the decisions makers and members in said organization are not concerned about the historic use of the dog, or if the dog has any real use at all that requires movement and agility. It seems the Boerboel has a new use/function and that is breeding and showing. If you correctly are concerned with health, then the size of dog as you suggest is not overriding, but all things being equal, balance is, the balance that would still allow that dog to function. That said a dog that has to do more other than lounge on ones sofa, trot around a field or back yard, or bark at a fence won’t be healthy, your want, for long if it is over sized just because the market demands it. How has that been working for us? Our breed collectively is now not healthy, because many of us need special foods and supplements just to keep many of our dogs alive, they have skin problems and allergies and not to mention the genetic issues we are now seeing with regularity and I have yet to mention the temperament problems i.e., unwarranted aggression or timidity, that are often posted by concerned owners. This from a breed that not too long ago lived AND WORKED in the bush ate what was available and had little or no veterinarian care. What happened? This in part happened, selecting breed stock first because they mirror a standard, a closed gene pool severely limiting diversity, very tight breeding,and a new ethos that has developed, where breed purity is seen as more important than viability and heath. Let’s not forget our headlong rush to favorite sires as a short cut effort to set type and garner high appraisal scores. You want better health? Change this. This however is not peculiar to the Boerboel but to every show breed which the Boerboel is presently.

Ju wrote in part:
As regards a 'working' BB, I would agree with Anne that it is instinctive in this breed.Like with children not all are the same though.My son is very academic - 11 A*s GCSEs - but has absolutely no common sense.My daughter is not academic but she is very artistic , but has common sense.Does that make one of my children better than the other?

Ju all instincts in a dog are in place because those instincts were selected first in breeding. If you don’t select for them on an ongoing basis, they will disappear as they have done in most all show breeds. That is not an opinion that is breeding history and breeding science. As to you definition of what is better, that would depend on the use of the dog, wouldn’t it? Better for a show breeder is very different than better for a working breeder. That said regarding you using a child as a comparison for selection, you wouldn’t put down a child because of a debilitating genetic issue and you wouldn’t want them to produce more children if the chances were great that those offspring would carry on that genetic issue. That of course is not true for many regarding their dogs. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

If a community does not understand the cause and the attending results of something, they are not very likely to be able to change. Regards Norman

[jenny]

Hi Norman and all,

A rainy day in Africa waiting for my first Boerboel litter to arrive, so I have a bit of time to bore everyone with today!
I have a few thoughts on dog breeding that have evolved over the past 20 years, but that evolution of thought has accelerated enormously since coming to this breed some 5 years ago. For the first time in my dog breeding life, my and my family's health and safety is largely dependent on the dogs we own and in future will breed. This is a first for me and a real eye opener. Having bred dogs as companions and show dogs for many years, my priorities have always been conformation, temperament and health but over the last 5 years those words actually mean something other than winning in the ring. They mean the difference between being safe and not and believe me, that really makes an impact on the importance you place on them. Without trying to be overly dramatic, it could mean the difference between life and death.
I was fortunate, my first Boerboel just did the job, it all came so easily to him, being bred on a farm from farm dogs also doing the job. I mistakenly made the assumption that all Boerboels were like that and couldn't see the reason for others concern about the breed. Maybe a few tweaks to the conformation and Hey Presto a winner! Over the following couple of years I came to realise that not all Boerboels can or will do the job, and as our own dependency on our dogs grew, it occurred to me that unless we as a breed start to recognise this fact, our future here on the farm could become less attractive as a lifestyle. Now this is purely personal and maybe a little selfish, but in my world, it's the truth and I guess there are others like me in the same situation.
I now look at breeding these dogs through different eyes. How they look is still important to me on a purely aesthetic level, but how they ARE is the imperative now. And no, I don't mean aggressive monsters with slavering jaws, I have a family and friends too (strange as it may seem!) and I want invited guests to be at ease in our home with the dogs, it's the uninvited ones I need the help with!
I guess what I'm rambling on trying to say is: circumstances and experience have changed my views along with listening to common sense that is maybe uncomfortable to hear sometimes. I'm glad I didn't close my ears to those "others" that I argued so vehemently with in the early days and considered were just attempting to justify dogs with faults by other means. They were right after all and now I realise that. I've changed by listening and watching and living with these dogs. So thank you all those "others", you know who you are and there is one boring old bag in South Africa who lauds your ongoing attempts to show us the way! Keep it up, I haven't learned enough yet!

[countryboy]

Very interesting read Jenny. Pretty much sums up what Norman has always said. Good luck with the impending litter. The weather is crap in south east England today. No change there then!!

[jannikbb]

hi jenny, good luck with the litter, must be very soon.
i've been wondering, hope you don't mind me asking, why didn't you use your bob as the father of this litter, sorry in advance if you did, jan

[nepstein]

Jan am interested to know what are your thoughts regarding Jenny's post on the subject at hand. Regards Norman

[jenny]

Hi All
Thanks for the well wishes, "we" are in first stage labour today and expecting to be up all night delivering!

To answer your question Jan about why I didn't use Bob with Kitkat. After thinking long and hard about the breeding program I felt that Bob would be a better match for Mousey or maybe even Belle in the future. I used a dog that has sired 3 litters previously, all of which have had really nice balanced temperaments and no health issues other than one case of VH. To be honest, I can live with that should it happen. Kit is bitch aggressive and this was something I took greatly into consideration. With a dog like Bob I felt that until I know more about how both Bob and Kit reproduce, it would be taking a risk to put her to such a fully committed, albeit obedient and biddable dog at this stage.
My other consideration is of course the future. I will need offspring that I can use back with Bob's future offspring if suitable, always keeping in mind the genetic implications of painting myself into a corner too. So many things go into the melting pot when making these decisions, the dogs themselves, the health implications, temperament suitability, future options and the overall breed impact. I try to think 3 generations hence, it always changes, but at least there's a plan to work with. I have absolutely no problem going through my thought process in these things, I just feel that it's a bit boring for some who don't know the dogs concerned, but ask away if you're interested, it's my favourite subject or should I say more of a lifestyle!

Back to the maternity ward!