LYNNE DAVIES AND THE AMERICAN BULLDOG

[caroline]

I have written what my husband and I thought about Lynne Davies's and the American Bulldog on Dog Borstal and sent it to the UKBC Messageboard in answer to some comments on their board.

"We had not watched dog borstal for a long time but were intrigued to see this dog that had "tried to kill it's owner". Had the owner ever attended A & E? Why did they not show us what actually happened inside the vets when Wilson was biting? I would have liked to have seen it for myself. In all honesty my husband and I will never watch dog borstal again. We were extremely disappointed on watching an obviously very scared - wide eyed Lynne Davies. Of course no-one can get it right 100% of the time. But real strength is knowing you are out of your depth and asking for help! Why did she not refer them to someone else who may have been able to help the dog? Outside of dog borstal if need be? Who says he is actually mad, or is that just a loose term? He has been raised with no direction or leadership and he knew no better, he didn't have any manners. These people were unsuitable owners for a dog like this. They also need someone to say like I have in the past, and what dog are you considering having next? Helping them maybe choose a more suitable dog for their requirements. Before they end up getting another totally unsuitable dog. One of the worst possible things an owner can do is let a dominant dog keep standing up on them and other people, as he is doing this to dominate and control you. I would imagine he did this his whole life and all the rest of the things a dominant dog shouldn't do like go upstairs, sleep on the settee and bed etc etc. Trouble is people think it is cute! Maybe he would have been fine with the right owners. Unfortunately its too late to know now. I am not saying he wasn't dominant but in the right hands he would have had more of a chance than with weak and ignorant ownership. It is easy to just give the owner a list of possibilities but without someone holding their hand the owners easiest and quickest option was to have it put down. Yes they had children and the dog had to be removed from the house as soon as possible. We know someone who takes in aggressive dogs residentially and trains them. That maybe could have been a halfway house for him until they found a new owner. These people are there. I don't mean you jon (Jon Sheldon). I feel sad for the dog. I did not feel he had much of a chance from the start. It is also easy to label a dog as "MAD" because then it excuses why you couldn't train it. It doesn't mean someone else couldn't. When did he receive any real guidance, he never even received any affection/praise when he did get it right. These breeds need to feel devotion to their owner, without this yes they are going to try and get their own way because they have no respect. It would have been interesting to have seen a video of the whole 18 months of this dogs life to see how they had raised him. I dread to think. So much for saying he was her baby. Hmm!!"

Caroline and Michael Jones owners of Anasha Archie
Caroline

[buliebuse]

Hi Caroline
I would like to take the opportunity to reply to this post - please note I do not wish to come across in a negative/aggressive way - JMVHO(Sometimes emails/posts can be misconstrued)
I believe dogs CAN be born mean, as are people(the prisons wouldn't be full otherwise).
As you have probably read my previous posts about MK - it was a great afternoon.
Lynne Davies was very informative & IMO true in what she said.
Dog Borstal is made for TV & like newspaper articles, you don't always get the whole story.
Jan (Mitchell) - whom I'm sure won't mind me saying, has been working very hard alongside Lynne Davies as one of her dogs was very dog aggressive from a young age..Jan did a demo with this particular dog walking alongside a tiny terrier - no probs. Brilliant.
What was also good was that everyone there shared different problems they had encountered along the stages of 'growing up' with their BB's.No one put themselves on a peddle stool saying my BB is perfect.Even if I were to disagree with someone's point of view - I would not judge them because I am not God.
We all learn at least one new thing everyday, whether young or old, its just up to us if we take it on board or not.
As regards Wilsons owner - I can put my hands up & say 'YES', I would have done exactly the same thing.
People, especially children are not replaceable - dogs are, they are animals.
If you are a Mum, I'm sure you,d understand that sentiment.
Regards & absolutely no intent meant
Ju
PS Myself,my children & my dogs are not perfect - but we're working on it!
PSS Apologies for anyone who has lapsed into a coma reading this

[mayahund]

I haven't been following this discussion and really don't know what has happened but I react on a thing you say Caroline so I will reply.

If I get your drift correct you're of the opinion that a dog should always have several chances before put to sleep?

I do not agree with you fully out here, I think that sometimes a dog is given too many chances. To re home a dog that has taken the command of the family and bitten people is to me serious business. By handing over the dog to somebody else you could in fact be handing them a loaded gun.

Over here we hardly have any shelters, dogs are re homed and severe accidents has happened with re homed dogs (with other dogs as well) The ruling trend over here is that every dog should be "saved" - but in my opinion not every dog (or person) is able to change.

JMHO
Ewa

[karen]

It's true some dogs can't change but the fact is dogs are rarely born aggressive. It's nearly always the owners fault. dogs do not premeditate there attacks nor do they dwell on them afterwards. So why do we insist on putting them so 'sleep'. It's my believe that most dogs can be helped. Yes when rehoming all parties should be aware if possible of the dogs past but this is not always possible. Surely it would make more sense to sudy aggressive dogs in an enviroment that would help them live a balanced life. We have much to learn about our canine companions. Death offers no answers, It's just an easy way out for humans who have no desire to understand dogs. Where I live there is a massive amount of staffies filling up shelters. bad owners buying for status then getting rid when they cant handle their animals. These dogs are victims of the media. People fear them so they are destined for death row. Pit bulls banned, why? Bad owners and and a public misinformed by the media. Don't blame dogs blame people.

[karen]

oh and I almost forgot. Dog bostal stinks. It's a badly put together piece of tat. I've stopped watching it because all I do is shout at the tv. Those dogs aren't reformed it's like they've put a band aid on a gapping wound. shoddy unproffessional rubish.

[caroline]

Thanks for your replys. Yes, I do believe everyone and everything deserves a second chance, obviously depending on what they have done, why and the severity. Yes, I do believe that some animals and people are born mean. But I do not give up on things that easily. I also believe everyone and everything deserves the chance to be alive. Obviously they must live in harmony with the world and people around them. I totally agree that the children are the most precious factors in these equations and must be protected at all costs. I always ask people if they have children to ensure their safety. But a mother, should never ever even consider, bringing a dog of such a strong willed nature into their home in the first place. As usual who turns out to be the looser the poor dog. I find it annoying that people can be so silly and literally risk their children and buy a dog that they hope will stop someone stealing their television and guard their family. It does not stop there. Then they ruin what may have been a perfectly good dog in the process. Then have that one put down and go and get another one like they are casting off an old pair of shoes that they don't like the colour of anymore. I also do not see anything as mearly being replaceable. To me that takes away its true value and makes you wonder if you ever deserved having it in the first place.

Caroline

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

It is mostly weak leadership that condemns dogs, obviously all dogs are different, but generally I would bet that most dogs can be resocialised. Food for thought, they are nearly always young males that get put down or labeled as untrainable.
I think that all owners should have to take a test for suitability before having the possibility to own a dog, and part of the test should cover dominance issues and methods of tackling them.

Shaun

[mayahund]

admin said:

Food for thought, they are nearly always young males that get put down or labeled as untrainable.
I think that all owners should have to take a test for suitability before having the possibility to own a dog, and part of the test should cover dominance issues and methods of tackling them.Shaun

I don't know if I mentioned this before or not but will do again.

Back in the year of 2000 when we bought our first bb the debate on fighting dogs was running very high up here. We don't have many shelters but theres one big one in Stockholm who also take in dogs that are impounded by the government or taken by the police.

They made a suggestion that all dog owners should have to get a "dog owners license" - I'll try to describe their idea in short; The dogs were to be put into different categories regarding how "potentially dangerous" they were, if you own a small rather harmless dog you should attend a few classes regarding common dog knowledge, without the dog , then on the next level of dog, the suggestion was classes with both theory and practice and at the highest level several hours of both.

I find this a great idea! But unfortunately it's not possible to make it happen - the SBK (Swedish working dog ass) just can't start up as many classes as would be needed. Right now it's rather difficult getting into a puppy class since there's just not enough trainers available.

Another food for thought is, if we make this happen - how about classes for humans wanting to be parents??
Ewa

[buliebuse]

Hi Guys
Can I throw a spanner in the works here please?
How many of you breeders have had a dog/bitch returned to them through agressive behaviour & have had to have it put down?
Honesty can be a great tool sometimes.
Ju

[caroline]

Dear all just wanted to keep you all posted as to what I have been saying on the other messageboard.

"I would like to reply to Garry's comments however. I do appreciate what you say and understand that you would see Lynne in a different light. But, why do none of the trainers have a pet corrector on them or some other form of deterrant to use as a punishment for unwanted biting/bad behaviour. A loud "NO" means nothing to a dog that has proberly had this word shouted at him daily by his owners throughout his whole life. A quick squirt of a pet corrector can shock a dog into stopping in its tracks. I've done it! This can then be used to train out unwanted behaviour in a dog that is difficult for a trainer to touch. A responsible breeder would never have sold this dog to this woman in the first place so to ask them to be responsible afterwards is unrealistic. I agree, yes it was good that dog borstal aired it, but I believe it brings to the front a shortfall in what they are giving people who attend their training. Some people need more help, support and advice than others.

The process begins when someone watches the programme and it states these trainers are used to "A"Category dogs and turning them around. Someone relates to this and knowing they have had problems for a long time and that they are out of their depth feels confident these people will get results. This can be the first breakthrough when someone finally admits out loud yes I have a problem. These people them become desperate for immediate results. After all they are almost guaranteed them. To create this type of expection is unrealistic. The first thing Wilson needed before leadwork was for his owner to achieve some kind of repoire with him. She should have been given some kind of homework before she even attended. Surely, they must have the videos and casenotes in advance to attendance to enable the individual planning of each dogs training? What was the point of the vets examination? Okay, it shows a dog is healthy and that it should not have a heart attack during training. But this dog appeared to have nervous aggression (the babying syndrone) and cornering it or backing it against a wall will make it bite out of fear if not aggression. As we were not shown what actually lead up to the biting incidents during the vets examination I can only submise. I also believe after Wilson bit Lynne she should have gone to the other trainers and they should have changed the dogs around as this was not a possitive thing to happen to Wilson or Lynne. Also there is a bite and a nip both varying in intensity. I also expected Wilson to snap at the examiner and was just sitting there waiting for it as the examiner walked forward to shake his owners hand. But again, he was not reprimaded so he learnt nothing. Yes, Lynne stated their options but were they given any help/support to come to their decision? It is unfair to offer help in the form of training but then not to support someone who is left to make a difficult decision. Again some people would find this decision more difficult to make than others. Did the owner have a computer to search for help? To have given a list of organisations, contact numbers etc to the owner would have been helpful. Why don't they have a list of people to refer to if they themselves find they are out of their depth? Were they asked why they chose a powerful breed like this in the first place? Did they recommend a breed suitable for their family? As I watched the programme I could picture their next puppy wide eyed and innocent watching the programme with them! I don't mean to appear cynical but I have met this type of person. For me to see how this dog was handled, or not handled, on dog borstal gave me a negative feeling as to what "they" are actually willing to do to help or train a dog. So, why didn't Lynne invite the owners with Wilson to attend her training classes? Like you say, you have seen her turn round dozens of dogs in only a few lessons?"

Caroline and Michael Jones

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Julie we have had two dogs returned to us with behavioural problems.Both instances were due to poor leadership thus allowing the dogs to rule the household.Both these dogs are still alive and in experienced hands.These dogs however will require constant leadership for the rest of their lives.Although we have probably been breeding Boerboels longer than anyone else in the UK it is only a short time.There may come a time when we have to put to sleep a dog due to problems but that would only be when all posssible options had been used up.Regards Paul.

[caroline]

Dear all a further up-date in response to Garrys comments:

"Dear Garry

Where you say, and I quote "I think we both agree that we both do not know the full story" Was that a question? Because actually no, I do not agree. I think you managed to fill in some interesting questions that "we" the wider audience were not privy to.

The last statement on this matter that I would like to make is. If Wilson was put down before dog borstal could inform his owner that they had found a home for him. That meant there must have been a time lapse between the owner going home "with" Wilson, how else could he have been put down without their knowledge. Why did they not offer to keep Wilson there while they tried to find him a home? After all this would have been more responsible all round. After all children were involved. Another very very poor lack of communication which in my opinion sums up this programme. Unprofessional and what I feel to be especially evident in Wilson's case too little, too late. Shame on them.

This week and for some Mondays to come, at 8.00pm. I will wash my hair and Michael will do some painting, then together we will sit and watch paint dry.

Caroline and Michael Jones - owners of Anasha Archie"

[sandaharr]

None,we have had dogs returned due to changes in family life.We have though fostered dogs from other organisations as a helping hand to rehabilitate the dog.

[karen]

I've dealt with many aggressive dogs and there are many types. I understand children are the most important thing here and should never be put in a dangerous position. All to often people humanise dogs and as your all nodoubt aware dogs just don't think like human...BECAUSE THEIR DOGS!!! LOL But seriously it's a shame dogs are so misunderstood by so many people because ultimately it's the dogs and usually innocent bystanders who get punished.