PennHIP result

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

"Well you won't get what you want by breeding towards the golden middle. Why?"

It seems that you just do not want to understand Norman, I want everything. Not the half dog you have to offer and not the half dog the show only types have to offer, this is not less than you advocate, it is twice as much. What you wish for is only half of what we demand.

Our dogs are scoring high points in Europe, they are also getting good PennHIP scores, and the people who buy them to do a bit of work are satisfied. Unless other breeders can offer us dogs of the same or better standard, we will stick to our own. This means we will not buy from pure "beauty" breeders and likewise we will not buy from pure "performance" breeders.

All breeders (beauty or performance) that breed to an extreme, are equally as nutty, out of balance and harmfull for the breed as each other and from our point of view it is better to keep such people at a distance.

Now it looks like you are just trying to wind me up, you just do not wish to read and understand what is written, and with that in mind I have decided not to write, it is a complete waste of time.

Goodbye
Shaun

[buliebuse]

Shaun
I think that was Normans' intention from the outset!
Are you bored with winding up the other members of other boards Norman? I personally thought that in your last post directed at Shaun you were unnecessarily vitriolic - fair play to Shaun for not going into the same 'play-ground' as you.
Ju

[nepstein]

Shaun you may want everything but you are breeding for what *you* define as your golden middle hence don't select for anything, but the middle. I read with interest your post and your below drew my attention.

Shaun wrote in part:

Our dogs are scoring high points in Europe, they are also getting good PennHIP scores, and the people who buy them to do a bit of work are satisfied.

The first thing you listed was scoring high points in Europe, next was good PennHip scores and last thing mentioned was, the people that want them because they "can do A BIT OF WORK are satisfied". It is good to remember that the Boerboel is categorized as a working breed and for it to remain a working breed this order should be reversed , with the following revision. "The people that want them because they "can do A BIT OF WORK are satisfied" must be changed to, the people want them because they can do the work of this breed if called upon and evidence all the traits assigned to it. I can only hope that the preponderance of our breeders has a different set of priorities. Please everyone read the entire article written by Hellmuth Wachtel for the latest addition of Dog World Magazine. The below is part of that article.


Dog World features aticle - June 2008

Fighting for the future of the dog
by Hellmuth Wachtel
12 Jun 2008 09:51

WHY DO WE need to fight for the future of the pedigree dog?
It is because of the deleterious consequences of our present breeding system which urgently needs to be reformed after 150 years as it is severely jeopardising the health and even the survival of dog breeds. Therefore it must be modified and adapted to the present state of progress in population and molecular genetics.
Formerly dogs were bred for some working task like hunting, herding, watching, tracking and so forth – and perfect health was a foremost requirement. However, today most dog breeds or the majority of dogs in a breed have lost their original role".

Why? Because of the order of what is selected and for what purpose the dog is bred. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Ju you are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to the facts. That said at least it seems you have gotten over your boredom. LOL Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Norman, if there ever was a question of whether to believe you or to believe Meike, you would not stand a chance.

Your scource of information about the health of the GSD, is not as reliable as Meike´s, her husband is a German police dog handler. It is his work and he knows what is going on. All you do is refer to internet articles that support your opinion.

While it is true that we prioritise working ability last of the 3 things we look mostly at, we are not convinced that we as breeders have much influence in that area. In fact as I wrote earlier, mankind cannot create genes, so obviously if working ability has anything to do with genetics, the dog must already have had this gene before it´s contact with man, and since mankind cannot remove a gene from any particular dog race, it is just as obvious that even those breeders that totally ignore working ability will always have the chance to rectify this at a later date.
The truth is that only a very little fraction of people who buy Boerboels, buy them because they prioritise working ability as the most important feature, just as few buy them because the parents have scored high. Most wish a family companion that can live a healthy life and, if neccesary, deter potential dangers to their own health or/and property.

Regards
Shaun

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:
Norman, if there ever was a question of whether to believe you or to believe Meike, you would not stand a chance.

Shaun I wouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket because Meike has previously written “Sorry but I am not into breeding of the GSD, I do
not like them therefore I have no interest in them. But I can agree with most of the things you write about them Norman.
With all due respect, Meike and her husband have a very regional view about the GSD breed and not a world wide view. That said the GSD breed is by far the most used service dog in the world today so they can’t be as debilitated as some suppose. They are even as we speak being used world wide for police-type apprehension, explosives detection, narcotics detection, accelerants detection, other types of detection, search & rescue, guide dogs for the blind, assistance dogs for the disabled, and in other roles, but these are working lines not show/pet lines. That said I agree with Meike that overall the GSD is in very poor health, because has I have previously written, 97% of the GSD’s are bred for pets and shows. Therefore it is completely logical to say that they as a breed are very unhealthy. To support that point, Mark Derr wrote a very lengthy article in The Atlantic magazine titled “The Politics of Dogs”. “In the 1950’s show people turned the German Shepherd into a weak-hipped animal with a foul temper and a bizarre downward-sloping hindquarters”. It should be noted that the Atlantic Magazine is basically a news magazine and not necessarily skewed towards the pet reader/market.

J. Jeffrey Bragg writes in his dissertation, Purebred Dog Breeds Into The Twenty-first Century—Achieving Genetic Health For Our Dogs." We shall all have to rise above our own narrow individual interests and perspectives if we are to save our purebred dog world from genetic disaster". "PUREBRED DOGDOM is even now in serious trouble through a general failure to distinguish between what is necessary to establish a breed and what is desirable to continue that breed in perpetuity. Most registered breeds are less than a century old qua registered breeds; many are but fifty or sixty years old. Yet nearly all breeds now show levels of expression of genetic defects that must be considered unacceptable. Over 500 distinct genetic defects have been catalogued in various breeds of purebred dogs and more continue to come to light regularly. Some of these have reached very high levels of incidence, creating problems for breeders and dog owners, threatening the health of entire breed populations."

David Hancock recognized expert on the mastiff and author of the "The Mastiffs - The Big Game hunters, Their History Development and Future" wrote "Breeders of Mastiffs must produce dogs that are capable of carrying out their historic role, even if they are not required to do so"

Moreover I am sure Meike will completely agree with the above. Why do I believe that? Because she and her husband actually train working dog, to perform there function. It seems I have been making some progress as you have thought better of using again your theory of ligevægtsloven to justify traits by artificial selection returning to there original base. (G)

Shaun wrote in part:

In fact as I wrote earlier, mankind cannot create genes, so obviously if working ability has anything to do with genetics, the dog must already have had this gene before it´s contact with man, and since mankind cannot remove a gene from any particular dog race, it is just as obvious that even those breeders that totally ignore working ability will always have the chance to rectify this at a later date.

First of all our discussion is not about creating genes it is about selection being used in manipulating them. Shaun working ability is not just one trait it is a combination of many traits that when put together in the correct combination make a working dog, work. The show/pet community will never do what you claim it can i.e., to bring back a working trait when they choose, because like you they don’t find working traits necessary for their market and or goals. In order to manipulate just one trait biddability, it took the Russian scientists 40 years of aggressively selecting and *culling* for just that one trait, to bring about said change. Do you really believe that the show pet community will choose that path? So given that, what you suggest “working ability will always have the chance to rectify this at a later date” could have just as well been written by Hans Christian Anderson and with as much validity.

Shaun wrote:

The truth is that only a very little fraction of people who buy Boerboels, buy them because they prioritise working ability as the most important feature, just as few buy them because the parents have scored high. Most wish a family companion that can live a healthy life and, if neccesary, deter potential dangers to their own health or/and property.

Your above is indeed sad on so many levels. One change I would make in your above is to change “if necessary” to “if lucky”. I have read ad-nausea the following hopes by the show community, on its many forums that “show line dogs are just as proficient in there work as working line dogs, the only difference is the training” and “we can bring back all of these working traits when needed” and “dogs bred for show are just as stable as dogs bred for work” and “show judging does not by its nature bring on exaggeration in type” It seems not to matter the above statements/hopes/prayers have no basis in fact and have been disproved by geneticists and breeding history so repeatedly, that it difficult to do any objective research and still believe and or substantiate those hopes. No one yet has been able offer on this or any other show forum scientific proof to back up those claims but they are still repeated in hopes that the new cadre of show breeders will believe them and continue on there show path. Please for those who still have reservations do some research ask some working breeders what they think of show line dogs and would they ever breed to them and if not why not. The show line dog brings nothing needed to the breeding equation and that is why in a functional breeding, they are avoided. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Es nesaprotu , ludzo, pasakiet tovelreiz!
Ju
XX

[buliebuse]

Norman dearest
I might be wrong but I think that everybody is entitled to the facts.Human nature being what it is - interpretations tend to vary.
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju on reflection I guess you're right. Some may look at the moon and think it's made of green cheese, because as you say, interpretations tend to vary. Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Ju,

Я не знаю какой язык вы использовали, но было как раз как постижимо как нормандцы

Regards
Shaun

[buliebuse]

Norman dearest
have printed off your last post to me & put in a frame ! LOL.
Ju

[bakkies]

I think these discussion leads to nothing. I have tried to write about my experiences, and it seems like they are only correct as long as you Norman, agree with them.

In overall, I have my limited view concerning the working abilities of the GSD in Germany, and you in the US (have you worked them or bred them?).

The other thing is that we try to speak about the BB and it´s working performance. I work my dog, my husband works my dog and even the police has worked my dog. The only thing why they think the BB is not able to be used in the German police, is that the handler has to pass a certain parcour with the dog. And BBs are way too heavy and to broad to pass it.

BBs are good protection dogs, great for demonstrations and tracking, but I belive they are too sensible for this kind of work.

To make a long story short, I think it is not fair to blame someone if you do not know what kind of quality (or not) they produce. Quoting is fine, but I do ot care what someone has written, I want proof by testing it out.

I both agree that we need to test for traits and performance but we do not need performance dogs in the wrong hands. We have much bigger problems with the Boerboel than it´s working abilities.

[nepstein]

Meike wrote in part:

" I do ot care what someone has written, I want proof by testing it out".

I couldn't have said it better my self and couldn't agree more and hope everybody is listening. I would also add to your above, I don't care what breeders are saying either. The begs the question of why test and the answer is if you don't test by third parties, you don't know what you are breeding and you don't know what you have (genotypic traits). This is especially true for a mastiff breed because it matures so very late as compared to a herder. Moreover another well known fact geneticists and working handlers have found out long ago is, if you don't test for a trait and once identified, aggressively breed for it on an ongoing basis, in time it will lessen. That is why working breeders test, because for us genotypic traits are critical. That said a mentally sound dog is critical for all and mental soundness is also confirmed by testing. You make another valid point in that we as a community have much greater problems, one one of which is, a bottle neck (genetic drift) of our already very limited gene pool of *correct* Boerboels i.e., having *all* and not just our favorite traits, assigned to it, which will even be more limited because of producing fewer correct Boerboel's. We all know what happens if the family tree doesn't fork a lot. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Meike continued: You wrote in part:

I think these discussion leads to nothing.

Permit me to disagree, to date 1250 subscribers have read this dialog and if nothing else by reading this dialog, will cause prospective buyers to ask for proof of *correct* temperament before they take anyone’s word for anything. To ask for proof that the dog they will get has a very good chance to be the dog they read about. If that is the only positive that will come of this I will be very satisfied.

Meike wrote in part:

I have tried to write about my experiences, and it seems like they are only correct as long as you Norman, agree with them.

I am puzzled regarding your above. To my knowledge I have seldom if ever disagreed with you regarding testing what it takes to maintain a working breed. Selecting first for a phenotype as many do here, will not maintain a healthy viable dog at least it hasn’t to date. My experience and breeding history tells me that, do you disagree?

Meike wrote in part:

In overall, I have my limited view concerning the working abilities of the GSD in Germany, and you in the US (have you worked them or bred them?).

I have a much more extensive view as I have been training working breeds primarily the GSD for over 35 years in schutzhund, detection work and PP. In fact I am the president of a canine detection business, Canine Intercept, canineintercept.com/ . So I know what it takes to maintain any working trait.

Meike wrote in part:

To make a long story short, I think it is not fair to blame someone if you do not know what kind of quality (or not) they produce.

This has never been about someone, it has always been about how and why breed stock is selected (methods) and whether testing for all traits is a part of that selection process, and if not why not. I have often written that I have nothing against pet/show breeders as most of the Boerboel’s bred today will end up on a couch anyway. But don't pet owners also require a stable dog? Do you know another way to produce a stable dog without testing it by the work of the breed or by a third party while the dog is under stress. That said if a show selection process is kept up for a length of time the Boerboel will be a Boerboel in name only. Do you disagree? Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

You are wasting your time Norman, for 2 reasons
1) in spite of the fact that for the last 10 years we have been telling people to demand copies of the hip/elbow testing, out of several hundred enquiries about puppies max 1 person has asked us for copies.

2) many breeders are just like us, they do not wish to sell their puppies to people like you who use prong collars and/or other painfull/illegal methods to train dogs. Our opinion is that if the quality of control over the dog is so low that the owner has to resort to pain as a deterrant, then they shouldn´t be training the dog in the first place. Better to leave it to someone who knows what they are doing.

Shaun

[buliebuse]

Storming Norman dearest
If that is true that you use prong collars etc - you have seriously gone down in my estimation.
I weigh less than my BB by a long shot - but do not need to resort to these medieval methods to keep her under control, whether in the town centre on a Saturday or walking the streets day/night time.
I am the boss & the one she looks to if anything out of the ordinary occurs.Example a Medieval Fayre in the middle of the town centre, with the Town Cryer approaching, shouting obviously very loudly, ringing a large bell & waving a large stick - no problem.
Would you put a prong collar on one of your children if they went off the rails - as all kids tend to do at points during their teenage years?
Ju

[nepstein]

Shaun and Ju, the following is a link to a STUDY regarding prong/pinch collars which should be very informative www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html , but since it doesn’t agree with your preconceived opinion I presume you will think it just more propaganda. I understand why your opinion of this training tool is slanted and you paint the picture of it you do because this misconception is very typical of those that don’t train there dog except in basic obedience or just for shows. Most who echo your thoughts on this training tool have seldom if ever trained a there dogs for one behavior when it very much wants to do another. That said this training tool is not always needed. It is not required if the dog is very handler sensitive, or because the dog really didn’t want to do that behavior in the first place but only gave the appearance that it did. Shaun it seems Meike has your trust on such matters I suggest you contact her for an opinion. The below is a part of that study on Prong Collars, done in Germany:

• 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.

• The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.

• Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.

• Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

The thrust of the study reports that any training tool can be misused. No one can, on a flat collar, *safely* train a correct Boerboel for what this breed was bred for, and that is to guard and protect. Regards Norman

[paulc]

Here is a quick example of the effects of the use of a prong collas vs. a choke collar as i describe & show to my new clients.
Place achoke collar around your thigh, i give the client a shortr correction . I place a prong ( pinch) collar on the other thigh, 7 give a short correction. After one hour , i ask the client which leg do they still feel an effect. the always respond to the leg that had the choke collar correction. If you are willing to subject your dog to 3 choke collar corections to one correctly timed prong collar correction , then do as you may.

[nepstein]

Paulc from your use of the word client in your reply I would assume you are a professional trainer and as such I would have expected nothing else regarding this training tool.

[paulc]

Iam a professional trainer , & i encourage all those who train with me to be fair , correct & concise with their corrections, & feel the only whay is to use in my opinion is the correct equipment . Now having said that , much depends on the character & teperament of the dog . Some dogs benefit from the useof a flat collar.
I trained my firs tFrench Ring 111 Malinois , started with a flat collar , & as his drive , true temperament , & character surfaced , i switched to a prong collar, & this tool only elevated his work ethic , to becoming a great Ring dog , & steady companion.

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:

You are wasting your time Norman, for 2 reasons
1) in spite of the fact that for the last 10 years we have been telling people to demand copies of the hip/elbow testing, out of several hundred enquiries about puppies max 1 person has asked us for copies.

Shaun maybe they see no need to ask because like you, they (prospective purchasers) believe a trait once in evidence e.g., functional hips will always be in evidence, much like the trait to guard and protect (g). Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Prong collars are illegal in most of Europe and there must be a good reason for it.
Choke chains are regarded as more humane. We do not use them either. In the end it is a question of who is mentally stronger, the dog or you.
Anne

[nepstein]

Anne wrote in part:
Prong collars are illegal in most of Europe and there must be a good reason for it.

Anne, the reason these restrictive laws are in place is that they were written by politicians who want to get re-elected. Therefore while writing laws regarding dogs, respond first to the wants and emotions of there constituents, that were fashioned by reading newspapers, instead of scientific facts like the ones I presented. Those same geniuses, even as we speak are writing laws to forbid ownership of specific breed, like the Boerboel, from whole countries. Why? Because that is what the people who elect them want and it sound really good when they next run for election. And the people will say, the Boerboel is illegal in (fill in the blank country) so there must be a good reason for it. Yes there is a reason and the reason has little to do with the facts.

Anne wrote in part:
Choke chains are regarded as more humane. We do not use them either. In the end it is a question of who is mentally stronger, the dog or you.

I will be sure to pass your above along to all of the military, police, ring sport, schutzhund K-9 handlers world wide, who use the prong collar daily in there training. Have you noticed that most people that have confirmed opinions regarding certain breeds or training equipment have never owned or used them for there intended purpose? Reaching conclusions on emotions is indeed a slippery slope. Regards Norman.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Norman! Have a nice weekend.
Anne

[nepstein]

Thanks Anne, but I must say am a bit disappointed as I was hoping for better. Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Norman, would you say that the use of the prong collar is 100% absolutely neccesary for working the dog, or do you cause the dog pain and discomfort for fun?

Paulc, nobody here will be fooled into believing that the amount of pressure and pain that a prong can exert on a dog can in any way be less than a chain of the same width. All of the energy that is spread by a wide chain is put onto the thin points of the prong collar.
Your experiment proves nothing, there are no details to make a comparison and no measured data to draw any mathematical conclusions from. Obviously if a person uses a very thin choke chain violently and incorrectly on a very big dog, pain or damage can be caused, but then violent use of any prong collar can cause death.

Do you also maintain that you cannot get the dogs to do what you wish them to without using a prong collar?

Regards
Shaun

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Norman, unless we all agree with you this discussion will go on for ever and I have better things to do. I do not want this forum to end up like the SouthAfricanboerboelforum where only a handfull of the 800 members post. The rest have been scared away by people telling them what to think and believe.
I am a good pack leader and my dogs respect me and obey me. They work for me, all without any violence and prong collars. That is a fact.
I have done this for about 35 years so I know what I am talking about.
For my part this discussion is over.
Anne

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:

"Norman, would you say that the use of the prong collar is 100% absolutely neccesary for working the dog, or do you cause the dog pain and discomfort for fun"?

Shaun as I have before written in our dialog, the use of a prong collar depends on the work and the dog. Now as to whether I enjoy causing my dog’s pain and discomfort moreover do so for some kind of fun. I suggest you not continue in this tenor or the moderator will ban you for flaming and I wouldn’t want this thread discontinued because of your attitude. So that you will know I am not making this up, the following is what he wrote regarding *Tact and Tone* on this forum. "It has always been the purpose of this board to be a friendly place, if threads are written that are not in this spirit I will remove them. If I do not see such threads, anyone is welcome to write an email or personal message and inform me, I will then remove the thread".
As to the rest of your post I suggest you read the study I offered regarding prong collars again. That’s assuming you read it before, here again is the link for that study www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Anne wrote in part:

Norman, unless we all agree with you this discussion will go on for ever and I have better things to do.

Anne your above is not accurate. This dialog is not about me and never has been and the continuing assertion that it is, is getting tiresome. You might have noticed I continually post the articles and studies of others in order to substantiate my positions, and one of the reasons I do is to show that it is not just me, and what *I* believe. That said I have never seen any serious scientific proof to substantiate what you believe regarding traits and how they are maintained. For the record I wasn’t born with my positions I came to believe them by the weight of evidence offered by geneticist’s and other working breeders from different working venues. Therefore when I read totally flawed information like the below from Shaun, what would you have me do, sit still and say nothing.

In fact as I wrote earlier, mankind cannot create genes, so obviously if working ability has anything to do with genetics, (*if*, working ability has anything to do with genetics!)the dog must already have had this gene before it´s contact with man, and since mankind cannot remove a gene from any particular dog race, it is just as *obvious that even those breeders that totally ignore working ability* will always have the chance to rectify this at a later date.

The only obvious thing is, that his above would never stand up to scrutiny by any serious scientists, geneticists, or working breeder. That said it is humorous indeed to believe that many beauty breeders even have the capacity to even recognize correct working ability in a dog, and once recognized, would then have the know how or zeal to maintain it. I do however understand why this above myth defended so voraciously because it is one of the mantras of beauty breeders. That anytime we wish, the beauty breeding community will rise up as one and bring back any working trait we choose and the reason we can is that trait really never left. To know how ridiculous the reality of that is, all one has to do is to look at the AKC show German Shepherd Dog or working Boerboel, and then talk to there handlers and or breeders.
Regards Norman

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Norman perhaps you could answer a question I asked you earlier in this thread.
How many dogs have you bred and what reasons did you have for making those matings ie.Temperament,drive,health etc?Regards Paul.