PennHIP result

[nepstein]

Paul I answered the question you asked earlier regarding if I bred dogs, the breed and the qualities I found necessary, in reply #44, and for the record you didn’t ask me how many dogs have I bred, you asked me if I have ever bred dogs and if so what breed. The below is a copy of your original question.

Hi Norman I was wondering if you have ever bred any dogs and if so what breed?Also if you have what qualities did you decide were important in selecting your male and female?

Now for a change let me ask you a couple of questions. If you have bred dogs what methods do you use to quantify the traits assigned to this breed in your breed stock i.e., nerve, courage, biddability, work ethic and correct temperament, and once identified how do you maintain these traits. Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Norman, asking you a valid question is not flaming, either the use of the prong collar or any other illegal, pain and damage inflicting instrument is essential or there can be no other reason for using it than to gain personal pleasure.
Flaming is to call people derogatory names like "beauty breeder".

No need to take things personally because you lost an argument, you lost it when it started, no reasonable person would expect any breeder to commit a crime by using an illegal method of training such as a prong collar, and if prong collars are essential to your type of working a dog, it follows that no reasonable person would expect any breeder to work a dog in that manner.

It also raises further questions of morality, ie. is it moraly right to subject a dog to illegal and very painful methods, in order to get some work out of it, especially if that "work" is competition based and is only useful for supporting the ego of the owner/trainer? I would answer no, I must admit that I could never subject a dog to what I would describe as cruel and unneccesary pain in order to win a piece of glory.

Another question could be, if this work ethic is genetical, and therefore not within the dogs capabilities to control of its own free will, why does it have to be subjected to these cruel and illegal methods in order to bring that to the forefront? Surely if it was genetical, the dog would get pleasure out of feeling that it was fulfilling a basic need and not need to be controlled with such a heavy hand.

If so many authorities around the world have made use of prong collars illegal, why hasn´t the working dog world come up with a painless alternative? We have, so it begs the question of how much the actual wellfare and physical wellbeing of the dogs means to these people.

It is certainly no surprise that breeders like us are very sceptical about selling our dogs to them, there is definately no way that we are going to use their illegal methods on our dogs in order to make our dogs more attractive to them, regardless of the negative names they call us, in fact if they are just as bullying towards their dogs as they are towards breeders that do not breed especially for people of their persuasion, it is not likely that they will ever convince us that there would be any advantages of ever helping them at all.

Regards
Shaun

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote:

Norman, asking you a valid question is not flaming, either the use of the prong collar or any other illegal, pain and damage inflicting instrument is essential or there can be no other reason for using it than to gain personal pleasure.
Flaming is to call people derogatory names like "beauty breeder".

First of all your *conjecture* regarding the use of prong collars was not based on proven facts, some alternative facts, based on a scientific study were previously offered and not disputed, therefore your question was not by definition, not a valid one. For the record the term “conjecture is used to indicate a proposition which is presumed to be real, true, or genuine, mostly based on inconclusive grounds”. So based on inconclusive grounds, you then jumped to the emotional and if I may add erroneous conclusion e.g., damage inflicting, that IYO there could be *no other reason* for the use of a prong collar other than the personal pleasure gained by the pain it inflicted. And for you that is not flaming but the use of the term beauty breeder is. It must be nice to be the moderator.

Shaun wrote:

No need to take things personally because you lost an argument, you lost it when it started, no reasonable person would expect any breeder to commit a crime by using an illegal method of training such as a prong collar, and if prong collars are essential to your type of working a dog, it follows that no reasonable person would expect any breeder to work a dog in that manner.


You seemed to be enamored the idea of winning and or losing when rambling towards one of your conclusions. Shaun this is not about winning or losing it is about offering our proofs and let the 1500 or so others who have read this discourse make up there own minds about whose opinions are based on facts acquired by professionals and which are based on conjecture and emotion. I also notice you enjoy using the term illegal when trying justifying your position on the use of the prong collar. I wonder how much you will enjoy it when others use that term in order to justify the banning of the Boerboel in their country. I say that because your opinion of the prong collar, and the there opinion of the Boerboel is based on the same thing, emotion. It is good to note that breed specific legislation is not based on facts but is also based on emotion. So when they knock on your front door with a paper saying it is *illegal* to now own a Boerboel, what are you going to think. Well if they say it is now illegal to own a Boerboel there must be a good reason for it, so take my Boerboels.

Shaun wrote:

It also raises further questions of morality, ie. is it moraly right to subject a dog to illegal very painful methods, in order to get some work out of it, especially if that "work" is competition based and is only useful for supporting the ego of the owner/trainer? I would answer no, I must admit that I could never subject a dog to what I would describe as cruel and unneccesary pain in order to win a piece of glory.

Well good for you, but it indeed stunning how you can divorce yourself from the pain caused by beauty/show breeding and begs the question is it morally right to subject a dog to very painful methods, in order *not* to get some work out of it? What about the morality of very tight breeding in show world just to set a type and hopefully to win a rosette. The consequence of this lunacy is deleterious recessives have a much greater chance to express themselves, resulting in the 500 or so genetic diseases that have very recently been fostered on our pure breeds. What about the morality of the loss, in our pure breeds, of their vitality and function due to show breeding. What about the pain in the exaggerations in type just to catch the judges eye, no piece of glory and ego there. The show Neapolitan mastiff is so wrinkled it can barely walk and the Bull Mastiff, because of show breeding, is now almost without function causing them to be so overweight and riddled with HD it couldn’t perform its function even if by some miracle it wanted to. I could go on but you would think the many other examples I could offer would just be propaganda. Even if you are correct regarding the pain caused by someone who does not understand how or why to use a prong, that pain is so much less than the pain that all of our pure breeds have and will suffer because of show/beauty breeding. It’s not even close. And by the way that competition you so abhor has made the working GSD the most used service dog in the world and the lack of it has made the AKC show GSD a physical and an emotional cripple unable to perform any meaningful work. Good job show community, and to think they did it all without compulsion.

Shaun wrote:

Another question could be, if this work ethic is genetical, and therefore not within the dogs capabilities to control of its own free will, why does it have to be subjected to these cruel and illegal methods in order to bring that to the forefront? Surely if it was genetical, the dog would get pleasure out of feeling that it was fulfilling a basic need and not need to be controlled with such a heavy hand.

The above question could only be fashioned by someone who doesn’t understand work ethic and or working dogs. A working dog is bred to perform a function despite pain and difficult conditions. Because of that the dog enjoys what you and I would think painful. The heavy hand you feel is not necessary most certainly is, because we bred working dogs for their exaggerated traits and in order to control such a driven dog, a treat and a pat on the head won’t accomplish what you apparently think it will. My father had an expression which is very apt for this dialog, and it was, don’t worry about pigeons when there are vultures overhead.

Shaun wrote in part:

If so many authorities around the world have made use of prong collars illegal, why hasn´t the working dog world come up with a painless alternative?

We haven’t because we just like to see them suffer (G). Shaun , compulsion is a requirement in order to train a driven working dog. We have tried sitting them down for a good conversation to tell them what they have been doing wrong, but the result of that is they keep repeating the same mistakes. Maybe some good music will turn there heads, and by the way I would strongly suggest you don’t use the word genetical, in any other forum. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Stormin Norman Dearest.
Have you actually bred any BB's - simple question , I don't need a politicians answer.Just the truth.Not interested in GSD,s - I hate them - as a young child saw my Father mauled by 2 of them when as a local business man, would not pay up for 'security'.
As for prong collars people will always disagree.
As regards a BB being a working breed - does that justify why they are still by some Breeders being docked over here in the UK?(I could name & shame a fiew breeders - will not stoop that low)
If the breed is not KC registered, who as a vet plays God & says yes 'it looks like a working breed' , I will dock it?
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju I will try to answer any question asked and did so. Now you have asked a different question, have you bred any Boerboels and the answer is yes. As for *hating* a breed that happens to be, by far the most used service dog in the world, because you had an unfortunate experience with two of them is, and I am being kind, a bit myopic, but each to his own. I can only hope that the two year old toddler who recently had his face torn off by his uncles Boerboel will be a bit more forgiving when he grows up. Since tail docking was not part of this thread, do you want my opinion regarding tail docking? Or did you for some reason just want to give yours.

Ju wrote in part:

As for prong collars people will always disagree.

Unfortunately you are correct the show community for the most part sees no reason to use them and and is quick to shout to all that will listen that the prong collar is some sort of medieval torture disguised as a training tool and the working community i.e., police, military, all dog sport venues world wide, sees no reason not use them if required. But then the working community is far less emotional about such matters. As always Norman

[buliebuse]

Stormin Norman Dearest
Glad to hear you have bred - who was your dog/bitch & what linage/parentage were/are they from?
I like to 'keep up' with history of this breed.
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju your request is far off the path of this thread, therefore would be pleased to answer you off line. My email addy is [e-mail]

[buliebuse]

Stormin Norman Dearest
My Email is on members profile - I do not have anything to hide.
Regards
Ju
Could not relate to you saying was off topic - just me being dim again I guess - all I asked was from whom you have bred - is it a secret - or what - either way I am not really bothered if you are not prepared to put up details of your matings of BBs etc

[nepstein]

I am encouraged that over 1600 have read apparently with interest this dialog regarding breeding, traits and how they became so, and how they are maintained. I realize the ideas I have offered were not, by the preponderance of this community, enthusiastically accepted (g) but my popularity was not the reason I posted them. If after reading what has been written your reaction is, that guy has no idea what he is talking about and then accept without ever doubting what you once believed, then I have wasted a lot of time. My effort was not that you believe me, or to win at the expense of someone else, just that you doubt and because of that doubt, do your own research and from that research reach your own conclusions and not just parrot others. When someone says or writes that a genetic malady or physical disorder is prevalent in the (fill in the blank breed) my want, if you own such a breed, is not accept that any disease is normal, but ask why it is prevalent. To realize there is a lot more too orthopedic health than clear hips and a lot more to breeding a working breed than putting two pretty dogs together. To understand that x-rays alone will not significantly improve HD. All of the answers to why are out there and if you profess to love this breed or want one day to legitimately use the designation “responsible breeder” in front of your name, then do the work in order to find out, why. Norman Epstein