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Post by mayahund on Jun 26, 2008 21:32:11 GMT
Paulc wrote an interesting post under introdutions, I took the liberty to copy and paste it and move it over here since I hope we can have a long discussion on the subject - without hips this time Norman ;D Belove is PaulC's comment //"Thank you for the welcome . I always expect to learn new things about a variety of breeds, in the hope that what i learn can be of use to me when ever i have dogs come in for training.
What disappoints me , is the fact that many NBowerboel breeders/owners do not do more training with their breeds. There are many venues out there that can be used to test your breeding stock or your dog . By venues i don't mean CGC @ 6 months , that proves little as to the character of a mature Boerboel, or the ATTS teperament test , that also doesnot prove much , when the dogs sre young.
I have tested many Boerboels , some good & many more not, but the unworthy are still being bred , i assume $$$$ is a=the main concern.
I must realize i cannot help those that do not want to be helped."//Situation over here is the same as you describe it. Also we don't have CGC's and so on. I would love to hear some about how you test bb's (if it's not a state secret  ) Ewa |
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paulc
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Post by paulc on Jun 28, 2008 13:15:48 GMT
It's not a state secret , as i live in Canada, LOL , the biggest problem is that those that own the dogs that i feel are dangerous, spooky, lack nerve, motivation, are overweight , aggressive for no reason , will not accept the fact that they have a problem & need to sort it out or there will be grave consiquences in the future. Recognizing a problem often missinterpreted as "oh he/she doesn't do that at home" or never done that before , or this is a new place , or their too young, etc., etc.
I test for noise sensitivity, recovery from noise reaction to me is the most important. (how does the dog react to the second stimulis.) I test for what motivates the dog ( food . toy , ball etc.) I hear this so often ," dog will do anything for food " i test ooops ! the dog refuses food . That tells me you don't know your own dog in depth. ie: dog isin't the same off its property == weak temperament .
Ok what is temperament? " The ability of dog to do what it what was designed to do " every day , anywhere, anytime " that is not how cuddly it is , how pretty it looks etc."
I test for willingness to work/play , duration of working/play time. I test for aggression, & forgiveness . Does the dog trust it's owner. I test for scenting ability.
I look at body posture the minute you take the dog out of the vehicle ., approachable , spooky , tail tucked, ears back , poor eye relief.
When i give my evaluation , & if it is positive many times that's where it ends, the owners?breeders walk away confident that what they have is perfect. It doesn't end there , you must test in those areas covered to realize the deficiencies . If the evaluation is negative , they go away saying "He doesn't know sh....t , etc. " Even accusing me of abusing the dog .
I feel the proof is in the what the offspring can do , not just what the parents can do. What i mean by " can do " is do they do what they were designed to do".
Yes i do use food to train , shape the exercise , reward & reinforce . When i'm 100% sure the dog knows what i teach , & he/she does not execute correctly , then there is a consequence involved, however slight it may be. I know that last stement is going to arouse someone.
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paulc
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Post by paulc on Jun 28, 2008 13:26:39 GMT
Thought i'd mention something about equipment .== A prong collar & a pinch collare not the same. A prong collar has stationary / fixed points, a pinch collar has a hinged mechanism , that delivers a stimuli without penetration , "when applied correctly", a prong collar will penetrate the skin with little effort .
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Post by buliebuse on Jun 28, 2008 22:02:17 GMT
"oh he/she doesn't do that at home" or never done that before , or this is a new place , or their too young, etc., etc.
Paulc - I have the exact opposite with mine - if at home they are very 'guardy' if out & about or in anyone elses home they just look to me for leadership & there are never any problems.
Would be interested to learn more about the difference between prong & pinch collars as I have never used either & do not intend to.
Regards
Ju
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Post by nepstein on Jun 30, 2008 14:26:12 GMT
Paul wrote in part:
"Yes i do use food to train , shape the exercise , reward & reinforce . When i'm 100% sure the dog knows what i teach , & he/she does not execute correctly , then there is a consequence involved, however slight it may be. I know that last stement is going to arouse someone".Paul I also use food to shape a behavior and once *completely* learned, compulsion for disobedience and most serious trainers train in the same manner. The following links are some videos of the result of that training. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu6OkvljW9k www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu6OkvljW9k www.youtube.com/watch?v=0onoYFmbyXk In the last video I had and used a prong collar on the dog and used food and toys all at different times and all for different reasons. IMO beginning trainers seem to anthropomorphize there obedience training i.e., I want them to work for me and not for food. Given that an *adult* dog has the cognitive ability of a 3-5 year old child, that seems a bit fanciful, as dogs like children are both very focused on what’s in it for me. Moreover using food is an exact method of showing the dog the moment he does the right thing and or the wrong thing. That said, compulsion doesn’t necessary meant physical punishment but also can mean he doesn’t get what he or she wants when he or she wants it. Rewards if meaningful, must be something special for the dog and since we tend to lavish affection on the dog all of its waking hours it tends to one loose its effectiveness in training and using just praise makes timing, which is critical in shaping a behavior, very difficult. If you look at my dog's body language in the above videos you will note a very happy willing dog wanting more not less training. Why? Because obedience training to him is just a game and if he plays following a few rules he gets rewards and praise, and because of that he wants to play. If he refuses there are consequences and if the dog understands what he did wrong the consequence's if fair have no long term affect of the dog, as is evident in the above videos. Norman
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paulc
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Post by paulc on Jul 1, 2008 19:02:39 GMT
Ju check out this bandogbanter site & you will see a pic of a spicked collar, although very fasionable , is simoilar to the old prong /spiked collar, only the spikes are towards the dog . A pinch collar is hinged , & posses amechanical advantage ( engineering tem ) The pinch collare is an" on - off " mechanism , although i see many inexperienced people walking their dogs on the street , with the dog wearing one of these , & the handler/ owner not having a clue as to how this equipment works. It was to be the be -all & end- all to having the dog walk on the street in control. LOL.
Hope this clears it for you .
Paul
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paulc
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Post by paulc on Jul 1, 2008 19:03:35 GMT
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 8, 2008 11:55:35 GMT
Stormin Norman dearest
Have looked at the video clips - please may I ask the following:
Presume is Gordo ? - Sit down & stay is for a short amount of time, is that so the video didn't become that boring?
I can take Buse up into the middle of town & tell her to sit & stay (obviously not being irresponsible, with someone else in the back ground) - or tell her to stay in the lounge etc when I am in the kitchen & do not want her under my feet 'mithering'
Also noticed that you allowed the dog to jump up after training - I would never allow that with Buse - she is alot heavier than I am, also means that my children & their friends etc can do agility with her , without that 'risk' of being flattened.
Regards
Ju
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 8, 2008 12:03:50 GMT
Thanks Paul
Shall sign into that site as cannot get a direct link.
Guess I am really lucky with Buse in that I can walk her with my little finger just on a normal lead.
Ju
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Post by nepstein on Jul 8, 2008 17:16:30 GMT
Ju wrote in part:
“Presume is Gordo ? - Sit down & stay is for a short amount of time, is that so the video didn't become that boring?No Ju the short sit and downs and in motion exercises has nothing to do with whether or not the video was boring as these were training videos therefore my goal was teaching the dog, not entertaining the viewer. I don’t believe in rushing when shaping a behavior so in the beginning I don’t ask for a long time frame for a behavior; moreover I am more interested in the speed of the behavior not that just that the dog is able to do it. I am also teaching focus and drive which is seldom taught when teaching obedience. The reason I allow my dog to jump up after a training session is I want to dog to view obedience as a fun thing and not as obedience per-se. If you look at his later videos you can see the end result of what I am talking about. That said I do sometimes “get flattened” but I would much rather get flattened by exuberance than walk off with a dog that was bored. I did notice that I mistakenly repeated one of the links in my reply. This is the link to a teaching video when Gordo was 7 months of age that I meant to offer www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoC6q_J89c . Regards Norman
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 10, 2008 7:48:26 GMT
Stormin Norman dearest
Think we shall have to agree to disagree on the jumping up issue.
As far as training goes I think it should be exciting anyway.If I take my children paint-balling,lazer-tag,driving tanks,swimming with sharks etc why would they after that want to jump up at me? Give me an exhausted hug & kiss & say thankyou Mum yes.
Buse unlike Sim has never really been interested in agility - so as I have booked her into classes that start soon , got out the kit & placed in the garden.Buse retreated to the conservatory, so I went around it & fed myself treats for the first 15 minutes.She then came out of her own accord & really enjoyed 'pratting' around with me.
When I come in laden with shopping Buse knows not to approach but to wait until I call her to me, I would also be horrified if she jumped up at anyone, big or small that entered my house.
Regards
Ju
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Post by nepstein on Jul 10, 2008 18:17:22 GMT
Ju I glad to hear from you. That said your analogy is a bit off the mark in that your children already take pleasure in paint balling, laser tag and swimming, so you don’t have to find ways to make that fun. On the other hand obedience is not fun for any breed especially a mastiff unless you make it so. That is why I train as I do. However, I am interested to know what training methods you employ in order to make obedience fun for a large mastiff who by nature and breeding does not like repetitive training.
Ju wrote in part:
I would also be horrified if she jumped up at anyone, big or small that entered my house.
Well so would I but how I train does not bleed over in how the dog behaves when in my home else I am a bad trainer. I’m surprised you don’t know that. The proof of this is Gordo has passed his TDI (therapy dog international) test and has done therapy work where jumping, for obvious reasons, is not allowed. I’m sure you know that just because one Boerboel is easy to control doesn’t mean another would be just as easy even with the same handler and training. To that end I am reminded of your following past submissions, when you wrote:
“I am no longer able to take her out by myself as the slightest clip, as we all know BBs don't have brakes - she knocks me over & out !So I always need to ensure at the moment that someone is with me - extremely frustrating” and " she knocks me out on her enthusiastic recall”
But with your Buse you wrote:
Guess I am really lucky with Buse in that I can walk her with my little finger just on a normal lead.
Yes you are lucky if walking your dog is your end result(g). Regards Norman
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Post by mayahund on Jul 10, 2008 21:41:54 GMT
Hi Guys! Sorry, I know I started this tread but I've been absolutely swamped at work for a while and it's getting even worse since Chilis brother Ryk is coming with his family tomorrow! Which we are looking forward to 100% ofcourse! Anyway, I'm in the middle between you Ju and you Norman My dogs are not allowed to jump at anybody, but I do see your point Norman. What I do when training is not so much candy/treats but lot's and lot's of praise and often in the form of pats on the chest and a voice that will tell them I'm thrilled ;D Ju, to make my point - just imagine for a second - Chili taking a leap......at round about anybody with her size  PaulC - the collars you mention are forbidden over here! I use either a nylon choker or just a very wide, ordinary dog collar in nylon. Actually I just read an article (in Swedish) in the SKK magazine about a collar that Cesar Milan developed and I must say I'm horrified!!! Why on earth would you want to make a collar that unexpired dog owners will put on their dogs, without knowing what the potential is, in order to hopefully get a "quick fix" on their problems? Norman - please update me, either here or by mail, how old is Gordo now? Sorry - I'm a total scatterbrain (at the best  ) Ewa Will try to keep up in this conversation 'cause it's an interesting one! |
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Post by bakkies on Jul 11, 2008 6:03:51 GMT
I do not really see a problem with jumping.
My dog is allowed to jump at me when I allow him to do it. It does not mean if a dog is allowed to jump on the owner the dog will do it with everybody, it´s all a matter of obedience.
My dog is also allowed to bite if I tell him so, that does not mean he bites everyone!?
We do not use a prong collar, we have a pinch collar. If the dog does not pull, then he won´t have problems. My dog is not allowed to pull on a leash so no problems with the pinch collar. It´s much easier to handle and this is the only collar that is allowed in FCI tests in Germany.
My dog does not care about treats as a praise, but we have a horrible pink ball, which is his "Motivation ball". This is the praise he gets since he was little and he works for this stupid, ugly little ball.
Meike
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 11, 2008 8:05:30 GMT
Hi Norman.Ewa & Meike Firstly off subject send mine & 'Uncle Clives' love to catherine & the new addition as well as Helena & Peter.(& of course big cuddles to Ryk) As regards Chili that would be a sight for sore eyes if she was ever allowed to jump up  Making training fun - sure Ewa can verify this ,not one day is the same when I am about.Also very lucky in the amount of different places available to take Buse - but that said guaranteed she will always manage to find fox 'poo' to roll in LOL. I had an incident the other day I had gone through several fields doing stupid things with her & when I came back to get in the car there were 3 JCB's at work along with @ 10 bodies at where my car was.I put Buse in a down stay & walked over to the gate & asked the guys if they could turn off the JCB's for a minute whilst I brought Buse through.They did.Now I know some of you would have just gone through there with your dogs - I didn't want to take that chance as I have just got myself into the position of being able to walk Buse myself, so didn't want a negative experience either for myself or Buse. Yes Buse is enthusiastic on recall Norman - that does not mean she jumps up though. Meike I really must sign up to that link that Paulc posted as regards pinch/prong collars, but I still don't agree with the need.That said you are an excellent trainer etc with Bakkies, but you use him in a different way to how I enjoy Buse , if that makes sense.Regarding bite work I think you do not need to teach a dog to bite, it comes naturally & when necessary.But as I say Bakkies is a different 'kettle of fish' & is worked.Buse is a house pet & around children. Regards to all Ju |
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Post by bakkies on Jul 11, 2008 8:43:16 GMT
But as I say Bakkies is a different 'kettle of fish' & is worked.Buse is a house pet & around children. Hi Ju, sorry I did not understand that. Bakkies is also a house oet and around children  I do not see the difference between a working dog and a pet. Even our service dog is around children and a pet when she is not on duty. Do you ean a different collar than I do? This is Bakkies collar. www.boerboel-info.de/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&func=detail&id=910&Itemid=3Meike PS: I am not an excellent trainer Ju! I really wish I would be but I am not. Every day I learn more about him and i must admit that sometimes I have to give up and just be stratified that we do not get any further with his training/behavior. Norman, maybe you like some of the pics here: www.boerboel-info.de/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&Itemid=3&func=viewcategory&catid=2 |
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Post by bakkies on Jul 11, 2008 8:50:43 GMT
PsPs: Here you can see what he is working for I have it in my hands. And look at his show-off collar ;D  Working is not only bite training, it´s fun like you do. Jumping, tracking, retrieving,... |
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Post by nepstein on Jul 11, 2008 23:49:55 GMT
Ju wrote in part:
Regarding bite work I think you do not need to teach a dog to bite, it comes naturally & when necessary .But as I say Bakkies is a different 'kettle of fish' & is worked.Buse is a house pet & around children.
Ju, for a dog peeing also comes naturally but as in bite work you must teach him where and when. That said just because biting is natual for dog doesn't mean he knows how, so that is of benefit to man and not just the dog, and more important you must train a dog to look to you as to when to let go. Just sending an untrained dog to protect/bite is IMO irresponsible. Gordo is also a house pet and is very good around children. If bred correctly, training a dog with correct temperament in protection work will not change its character but will in fact confirm it, although many in the SABT, without ever training protection work, would have you think otherwise. Regards Norman
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 13, 2008 13:47:01 GMT
Hi Meike
I think you are mean making Bakkies favorite toy pink - whats up with a blue one for boys LOL ;D
As regards 'different kettle of fish' - old English saying basically meaning both dogs I envisage to be different so therefore could not be 'cooked' in the same way, if that makes sense.
Loved the pic of Bakkies going over that jump - stunning.
Norman , I actually see your point of view.(Pick yourself up off the floor now).Perhaps I am like many of the ignoramuses out there have different ideas about protection work etc.But having said that I met a really nice man who worked with his dog in security at an appraisal last year.His dog was exemplary.Do you think males are better to females as do not suffer the mood swings etc?
Regards
Ju
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Post by bakkies on Jul 15, 2008 11:45:47 GMT
I bought a green ball, but a fried had this pink one. And I really had to have it for my little princess.  |
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paulc
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Post by paulc on Jul 16, 2008 15:05:46 GMT
What frame of mind is your dog in , when after you have shaped the "sit & down " exercises . i.e what is your dog to expect when completing these exercises correctly. ?
Your answers may well lead into why you prefer your dogs not to jump up. I will delve further into why i have my dogs jump & where they jump.
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 22, 2008 7:59:59 GMT
Hi Paul
Sorry for the late response.
Buse knows when walking through different fields etc she has to sit & stay until I call her through - she is always off lead.This gives me the chance to make sure the farmers haven't moved cattle around.As all know a kick from a cow or horse could be fatal.
Buse takes her enjoyment from chasing after a ball.
Picture this scenario - Buse jumps up at me, she is a lot heavier & knocks me out.This has happened , but luckily I was with someone.If not & someone else came 'running' over to see if I was alright - she is a guard breed & that person who came over to help would be attacked , no 'ifs' no 'buts'.
Just being sensible & responsible.
Regards
Ju
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I do not see the difference between a working dog and a pet.