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Post by tyeson on Jul 14, 2008 23:08:09 GMT
I have to check with everyone here if the following statement is correct and that is if the boerboel realy is getting heavier and larger but at the same time getting shorter. Because if this is fact and not just something going from finger to key around the internets verious users. Then I am, to say the least, surprised that the S.A.B.T organisation is letting this happen infront of their eyes. Letting the boerboel going from a beautiful gentle giant to become (through human guided evolution!) somewhat of a bigger version of jack russel.
BTW: I have another question I urge to have answerd. I have a 23 kg, 4 months old BB. My question is as following: Is 23 kg little, normal or quite much for a pup of that age?
Thx for your time
sincerely Filip & Tyeson
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Post by bakkies on Jul 15, 2008 11:46:45 GMT
Hi Filip,
what is too short in your opinion?
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leonette
New Member
Cutest little boy on earth!
Posts: 23
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Post by leonette on Jul 15, 2008 14:31:28 GMT
Hi,
I have to say I have similar questions like Fillip. Before I came on any type of message board or to any of the appraisals in the UK. I knew a Boerboel to have certain qualities. Even when choosing a Boerboel for myself me and Chris looked at a lot of web pages on who we will get Diego from. I chose Coomore because his dogs had the right qualities from how I know a Boerboel to have.
By right for some of you how will ask by what I mean. The type of Boerboel that I know from South Africa that I have seen and had.
I have read a lot about why the Boerboel has so many colours shapes and sizes and yes it made sense.
My question is: Everyone is talking about getting the Boerboel back to his FORMER GLORY, but when asked what they mean by that there seem to be 2 different sides.
a)One side more towards one sized BB, appearance and temperament.
b)The other side to temperament, working and all sizes being great.
Here it comes.
I know what organizations want but when it comes to appraisals dogs that doesn't have a black mask the right size (Being 60-66cm in height) get good scores. What makes a BB identified if not for the black mask and size?
The reason I ask is because of the following conversation with my mother in law.
When we got Diego Chris's mom got interested in the breed. She asked a lot of questions but the one factor that stands out is how she will know the differences between a Boerboel and any other mastiff. I said that it was easy the mask, size and eyes. So she wanted to look at other BB's. We showed her a lot of pictures and she commented on saying but some of them she couldn't tell was a BB from just looking at the mask and size coz they all are so different in size and some doesn't have the mask.
Kind Regards:
Leo-nette
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 16, 2008 4:04:42 GMT
Hello Leonette, we do not try to get back to any "former glory". The dogs we imported from SA 10 years ago were mostly phsyical wrecks and we have tried to distance ourselves from that. It was not usual to test for anything then, and therefore health was and is a serious issue in SA. As regards the height, SABT has dropped all upper limits, this will inevitably lead to larger dogs and larger even more unhealthy dogs at that. We have always stuck to the then breed standard and breed aggressively for the middle height.
It has never been a requirement to have a mask at all, and many high scoring dogs do not have them or have very little mask.
What makes a BB recognisable? Not much, it is still a dog where there are great differences in all aspects, so the pedigree is important. We can mostly tell which Boerboels come from our dogs just by seeing them, the same is true of the Boerboels that originally came from Siglensal and one or 2 other European breeders. But never with 100% guarantee.
Regards
Shaun
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 16, 2008 4:08:18 GMT
The normal development of a Boerboel is approximately a gain of 1 kg per week for the first 10 months. If it deviates from this you should begin to think about more excercise/less food. Too big too early often means hip, elbow and crutiate ligament problems are going to come at some time.
Regards
Shaun
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 16, 2008 7:51:39 GMT
Hi Leonette
People might shoot me down in flames for this - but I have always regarded a Boerboel as a mastiff - a SA mastiff.
Speak to you soon
Regards
Ju
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Post by nepstein on Jul 16, 2008 15:02:05 GMT
Shaun wrote in part:
The dogs we imported from SA 10 years ago were mostly phsyical wrecks and we have tried to distance ourselves from that.
I agree but the why of your above is more important than the fact that they were then physical wrecks. In fact, for the most part, they were selecting breed stock in much the same way we are now. Given that no working breed yet has been able to test its self to better health without it first undergoing strenuous testing or having the dog perform the work of the breed, just how have we or you distanced ourselves from them. Regards Norman
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leonette
New Member
Cutest little boy on earth!
Posts: 23
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Post by leonette on Jul 16, 2008 18:51:07 GMT
Shaun, No offense to you, because I know you have the Boerboels best interest at heart. I have read your website more than you care to know. I may be off the mark but it seems to me that you have taken offense to my question. Don't you have your own opinion as to what makes a Boerboel a Boerboel? My question still is simply how does somebody who doesn't know the breed know that a dog is a Boerboel? When it comes to other breeds for example Rotty / German Shepard / Jack Russel etc there are simple ways to tell that the dog is of this breed. I just want to apply the same method to the Boerboel when describing simply what the breed looks like. For the record, given your own admission that you have an eye for these things which of the following do you prefer and why?  Did you reply to me as a Boerboel lover or as to an owner of a Coomore dog? Because your tone and lack of answer to my question makes me wonder. I look forward to your answer as an expert in the breed. Kind Regards Leo-nette. |
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leonette
New Member
Cutest little boy on earth!
Posts: 23
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Post by leonette on Jul 16, 2008 19:01:35 GMT
Sorry but forgot to say I am interested to know your answer to Norman's question as well even though it had no reference to my question.
Kind Regards:
Leonette
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Post by countryboy on Jul 16, 2008 19:11:59 GMT
Hi Leonette People might shoot me down in flames for this - but I have always regarded a Boerboel as a mastiff - a SA mastiff. Speak to you soon Regards Ju Why shoot you down in flames Ju?   A Boerboel is a mastiff |
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leonette
New Member
Cutest little boy on earth!
Posts: 23
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Post by leonette on Jul 17, 2008 18:42:28 GMT
Hi Leonette People might shoot me down in flames for this - but I have always regarded a Boerboel as a mastiff - a SA mastiff. Speak to you soon Regards Ju Why shoot you down in flames Ju? A Boerboel is a mastiff Sorry for the confusion I have written "what makes a Boerboel different from a mastiff" When I should have written "Boerboel different from ANY OTHER mastiff". I see now why Julie wrote what she did! So.....I forgot 2 words what is the worst that can happen. Kind Regards: Leonette |
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 17, 2008 19:09:40 GMT
Norman, "they were selecting breed stock in much the same way we are now." We (Anasha Boerboels) do not select breed stock as you might. We do it entirely in our own way, we are not a part of your "we".
"just how have we or you distanced ourselves from them."
I do not speak for anyone else than ourselves, each has their own way of doing things and I am not in a position to generalise on anyone elses behalf. The ways that we (Anasha Boerboels) have distanced ourselves from the practices we have seen in SA are as follows.
We PennHIP test all our dogs and NEVER breed on a dog with DJD.
All of our x-ray pictures have the microchip number embellished so that there is no chance of using the same picture again and again.
We elbow test all our dogs and NEVER use a dog with elbow dysplasi.
We NEVER use any female with ANY grade of vaginal hyperplasia/prolapse.
We NEVER use any Boerboel that has ever had any crutiate ligament problems.
We NEVER use any Boerboel with aggression issues or timidity issues.
We never breed a Boerboel with eye entropion/ectropion.
We NEVER let any other breeder use our males unless they prove that their registered and appraised female is
a) PennHIP tested AND free from DJD
b) Free from elbow dysplasi
c) Free from vaginal prolapse/hyperplasia
d)Free from eye entropion/ectropion
If a breeder uses one of our males, the female has EXCLUSIVE rights to that male for 1 week. She can be mated as many times as appropriate.
If we sell an adult female as breeding quality, and it turns out not to be, we will let the buyer use one of our females until a suitable replacement can be found ensuring that no time is lost in their breeding program.
ALL of our puppy buyers get copies of all health testing results on the parents to their pup.
All of our puppy buyers can contact us with any problem and we will do our best to help them solve that problem, even if it means flying half way around the world.
Our guarantee is something you can take to the bank!!! No disappearing tricks at the first sign of problems.
We have a genuine desire to help those breeders that use us for their breeding needs and ordinary pet owners. If anyone wishes a working dog, we will also help them to the best of our abilities.
We run free socialisation classes at least 1 weekend every month for any Boerboel owner regardless of breeder or association, and help owners free of charge (not just our puppy owners) with training issues.
Regards
Shaun
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 17, 2008 19:45:05 GMT
Leonette, I did answer your question, there is no way that you can generalise about what a Boerboel looks like. As you get to more appraisals you will see Boerboels that look like great danes, neos, bullmastiffs both modern and ancient types, you will see all sorts of large breed dogs in them.
We do not judge a person by which breeder they buy from, nor do we judge any breeder by who buys puppies from them. If I am a little short it is because time is a little short for me, I work 12 hours every day right now. I do not mean to be rude.
Firstly I when looking at the pictures I would say that it is impossible to judge a dog by picture only. The first one (a) looks like it has a large underbite, very thin front legs and short ears the second one looks like it is too young to be judged. I cannot really say any more than that, sorry if my answer disappoints you.
Regards
Shaun
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leonette
New Member
Cutest little boy on earth!
Posts: 23
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Post by leonette on Jul 17, 2008 20:39:41 GMT
Hi Shaun, Thank you I feel now more like you have answered my question. It is just a shame that we can't determine a beautiful breed like the Boerboel to a certain look like the Rotty for an example. I originally had four pic's up but I already edited the photos on request at lunchtime. The one that you have removed is actually a dog belonging to my Aunt in South Africa!  I think you might have read the request for the pictures to be edited after I had already done so, so I have put the three back up again, and left out the one that didn't belong. Is it a fair assumption that breeders working with the Boerboel are rather working hard in making the health of the breed better and not so much about keeping the dog having one look if i can term it like that? Thank you again for taking the time to reply on my messages. It is much appreciated. Kind Regards: Leonette |
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Post by nepstein on Jul 17, 2008 22:28:12 GMT
That’s quite a lot of health testing so let me be the first to congratulate you. I did notice however that you do not test your breed stock to confirm there genotypic traits and qualities, and wonder why. If I am mistaken and this was just an oversight on your part please let me know in the same detail as you did in explaining your health screening process, how you test for temperament, character, courage, nerve and work ethic, which as you are aware, are critical traits for any working breed including ours. Although medical testing is important, in order to be useful, they must be used in concert with the work of a breed, as no one has yet been able just test there dogs to better overall health. I’m sure you agree, if a dog is not viable it is not healthy. If it were as easy as testing, to significantly improve a condition like HD then working GSD’s would have little HD as they have had mandatory testing, via a clear OFA x-ray for both breeding partners, for almost 40 years. Yet during this time frame HD was not significantly improved. And the reason is the working GSD community about 30 or so years ago gave in to the pressures of there show community who liked the sloped back on their show dogs. So they caused there breed specific test (schutzhund) which is mandatory on all working GSD, to be made easier so that their show dogs would not injure there sloped back and then could pass it and of course then breed. Conversely the Malinois whose breeders for the most part don’t x-ray or don’t perform many of the medical test you do have little or no HD or elbow dysplasi or crutiate ligament problems or many of the problems that plague our breed, yours aside. You might find the below reason for this phenomenon written by Laura Sanborn of interest. She has forgotten more about working breeds than most will ever know and what she observed is relevant to all working breeders.
"Indeed, medical health screening tests are rather narrowly focused in what they can achieve. A demanding functional test of physical abilities can select for overall orthopedic soundness and health, rather than just good hips. A friend explained it rather succinctly when we were watching a French Ring (protection dogsport) trial. As I was marvelling at the effortless athleticism of these dogs, nearly all of them working line malinois, he said of the palisade (vertical wall),http://www.ringsport.org/Pictures/champ04/ring3/2004%20NARA%20Championships%20134.jpg
"that's our OFA".
Dog breeds have been bred for hundreds and in some cases thousands of years by selecting for work. Breeds were maintained with genetic diversity as healthy usef dogs by breeding for work. Most of the (genetic and orthopedic) problems that have cropped up are of recent date back perhaps 150 years in some cases, and far less than that in most cases.
I realize I have written about some of this on a previous forum so if some of you have been bored by my above, let me apologize in advance. Regards Norman
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Post by nepstein on Jul 18, 2008 0:55:48 GMT
Leonette the below is why we can't and shouldn't have one Boerboel phenotype, and was copied from the World Wide Boerboel Community Forum, with the authors permission, me.
There are reasons why dogs of certain communities look different, and many cases horribly different. One type is devised by the beauty community around the template of a certain look. Because a look was that communities primary objective, they drew up their standard around a dog that, in there minds eye, only *looked* like it could perform its function *if* asked, and from that time forward all dogs, under that organizational umbrella, without exception must adhere to that template/standard no matter if they do anything other than showing, or not. As for the Boerboel a working breed, this effort in design has been further complicated by the fact that the Boerboel has no set minimum of what it must be able to accomplish in order to be called a Boerboel. So for the beauty community, the Boerboel is much like a lump of clay in that it can be molded by the demands of there market. However all of the above criteria, of lack thereof, is subordinate to the eye of a subjective third party, there judges who by there actions can at any give time, cause that community to breed towards his or there idea of what a Boerboel should look like i.e., wide, short, heavy big head or not so big drop chest or normal chest etc.etc. The working community also has a standard i.e., breeding goal, but because they are not as sophisticated as the beauty community (g) they were limited to those Boerboels that *actually* perform a function moreover because there first objective was a healthy, viable, agile dog with correct temperament there view of the Boerboel was flexible taking into consideration their work, and the topography where that work would be performed. As far as they are concerned, their standard should only used a guide, and not a scripture. Unlike the beauty community whose idea of what is correct for the Boerboel is always changing, because what is popular always is, the working community’s standard or look for the Boerboel changes very little, because work has no critical eye, hence their type is more set because there work is. For the working community, form following function is not some oft used string or words that sounds really good when used on a web site, but a breeding dictum. These distinct differences in type or sub-species are not peculiar to the Boerboel but are a part of all working breeds and there communities, because showing, is now a part of all working breeds. Regards Norman
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 18, 2008 3:46:11 GMT
Hello Leonette, then to answer your question properly, out of the 3 pictures I prefer the picture of the 3rd dog (c), the one that belongs to your mother. But I will add that 1 picture is never enough to make anything else than a superficial opinion. The dogs are all sitting and a standing dog could look entirely different.
Regards
Shaun
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 18, 2008 3:50:11 GMT
Norman, I have answered your question many times, both on this forum and others. I will NOT let you hijact this thread as well. Last time, if I remember rightly you were explaining about how important it was for you to able to switch your conscience off when being violent towards the dog. Personally we prefer to listen to our conciences, they are there to guide us about what we feel is right or wrong. We do not wish to attract people with your attitude towards the dogs, so we do nothing to encourage their interest. Testing for health traits is testing for "genotypic traits and qualities,", if it were not, we would not waste time and money testing for something that we felt was out of our influence.
If you wish to continue this dialogue, do it at the appropriate place, where you left off last time or start a new thread. We cannot let you get away with hijacking everybodys threads in order to forward your agenda. It is rude and will discourage people from writing. So if it happens again I will delete your post and repost it in a subject called "Norman".
Regards
Shaun
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Post by buliebuse on Jul 18, 2008 8:13:44 GMT
Hi Leonette I don't personally like any of them. To my eye one looks like a boxer,one looks like a great dane & the other a Labrador.Beauty, as with art is in the eye of the beholder!  Luv Ju |
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Post by nepstein on Jul 18, 2008 14:18:12 GMT
Hijacked? The thread was titled “Question regarding to BB size and "development” all of my posts were regarding that development, and why that development, with examples. What has been the result of a breed’s development when only health is tested and examples of same. What has been the result (development) for a breed when work is taken out of the breeding equation and examples of same. If you choose to repost my replies please do so under the heading of “Development” and I will continue as I have. Some may not write but they certainly have read. Regards Norman
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Jul 18, 2008 14:37:33 GMT
I´ll let it go for the time being Norman, you are getting some long rope, don´t hang yourself with it.
Shaun
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A Boerboel is a mastiff
