Mentality & owner influence

[mayahund]

I'm pondering on the fact that we're always talking about inheritable traits and training regarding the temperament in our bb's, but nobody seems to be talking about how much influence the owner/family has on the dogs mental health.

I've had the pleasure of following some of the pups that were born here and I have by now met quite a few bb's and their owners and I can clearly see there's a difference in them.

Of course theres genetic traits that can't be changed by man/training (only by breeding) - f.ex; my first bb was scared of her own shadow, however much social training and safe surroundings we tried to give her, she never became any better. Then there's dog's like Chili who'll put her nose any were and every were and doesn't scare easily! Same upbringing as the first one (except for the first 8 weeks) and different parents.

So I guess, if I make any sense, that my questions would be; how much do we influence our dogs and is the bb more easy to influence than any other breed, because of it's will to be near it's owner?

Ewa

[buliebuse]

Hi Ewa
I do think the environment the dog gets brought up in is a major factor.I only have little experience of 1 BB - Buse, so have no other BB to compare with.
As with children if they are brought up in a 'volatile/hostile' home that is what they think is the norm, as with swearing etc if the parents do it & act in violent ways, that is what the child learns.
We are very sad in our household - there are never raised voices or arguments, & its great.
BUT one day when out at a show with Buse a very loud arguement by people stood near to us 'kicked off'. Buse went ballistic - she hadn't known such behaviour & seemed to feel that we were threatened even though we tried to reassure her that all was OK.
I have never known a breed that is so 100% wanting to please/protect their owners no matter what .IMHO.
Ju

[temwani]

Hi Ju/Ewa,

I think the up bringing is all important and it is really interesting to see how litter mates turn out. Dogs respond to the environment they are in. I once went to see a collie that needed re-homing. When I arrived at the house the wife explained that the dog liked to stay out in the garden. When called the dog came in and hid behind the sofa. I sat on the floor and enticed it to come out and talk to me. The husband came home and the dog then leapt onto his lap.

We went out for a walk and the dog once set loose in the park took off like a rocket but did one whole circuit and then returned to play with mine.

The owner then decided that if the dog would get in my car I could take her to re-home. Needless to say I only needed to open the door.

The interesting thing was I then drove for two hours to take her to see some people who wanted a collie - (on the basis that if I took her home for a night I wouldn't have been able to let her go!).

She walked into the new house took one look round and then stretched out on the middle of the floor. Her whole attitude was "yeah, this will do I'll be at home here!". I was near to tears - here was what had been a wreck of a dog - cured by a move to a new home.

There was no doubt that this dogs mental state was cured by a new environment.

Geri

[mayahund]

Ju!
Just from the top of my head - You wrote; //"I have never known a breed that is so 100% wanting to please/protect their owners no matter what .IMHO."//

What is your thoughts on the border collie and that statement? I have no personal experience of BC's but from what I've seen over here, they seem to just want to please their owners? Also over here we have something called "hunting" English springer spaniels and compared to the original ESS - to me - It looks like an ESS but behaves like a BC in it's will to please.

By now I hope you know my "tone of voice" - This is not meant as any personal criticism toward you, I just would love to see this thread develop into a very serious discussion on how we influence our dogs or not.

Ewa

[buliebuse]

Hiya Ewa
No offense taken - too old , too thick a skin,too many husbands & 2 teenagers! ;D
My mistake - what I meant to say is I have never 'owned' a breed that is so 100% wanting to please.
As regards BCs - I have abit of experience of them when we used to live out in the country. All the farmers around had them.A very work driven dog , but not IMHO that loving etc.
Buse is not a work driven dog - more a comfort driven dog.

Geri thats an interesting story about the collie - is he still doing well now? It makes you wonder, what in his original environment caused him the stress.

Ju

[countryboy]

Hi Ewa.

I had a lot of dealings with springer spaniels a few years back.This was in field trails and working on a driven pheasant shoots.

There where two gentlemen who will always will stick in my mind.Both had great dogs both in trails and in real work.Both had achieved similar results and had lots of trophies.

There working methods however couldn't have been more different.
The younger guy of the two[late thirties early forties] had the scream at the dog and grab him by the scruff and shake him if he didn't do as required.

The other guy[70ish] was a quite gentle man who's dogs were equally quite and gentle hardly raised his voice.Both he got just as good results.

In both cases the dogs were as keen to please there owners.

[buliebuse]

Hi Simon
Thats interesting - I suppose as with anything its what the dogs used to.
We use a buffalo horn whistle when out with Buse if needed - but she doesn't very often go more than 50 metres away
Ju

[countryboy]

I use the same whistle with my r'r as i use to with my hungarian vizsla.He response well.
I never really set out to train him with it Just something I've always used.

Then funny thing was watching my west highland terrier when he was alive quarter to the whistle.Again i never trained him he just use to follow the vizsla.

[buliebuse]

Hi Simon
Find it so much easier - too lazy to shout I am!
Ju

[temwani]

Ju,

How could you think collies weren't loving??? The reason they want to work is to please their owners. The collie I described was I have no doubt stressed by the wife who didn't want her and shouted at her to get out of the house whenever the husband was out. The dog was fine when it was able to go to work with him but once she had to stay home the trouble began. (It is also why we always want to see both people from couples if one person wants a puppy. It is no good hoping that the other person will come round - particularly with a large dog like BBs. )

In this collie's case she immediately realised that her new home everyone said hello and wanted her there - so it was safe to relax and enjoy the hearth rug.

I have also rescued a dog from a house where evryone was relying on the dog to be in charge and the dog was not dominant and couldn't cope with all the responsibility. The people contacted me because the dog was barking it's head off and went mad whenever anyone came to the house - so had to be shut in the kitchen. There it just couldn't see what was happening and continued to bark continually. They had stopped taking the dog out for fear of it attacking someone. Paul thought I was mad when I said I would take her home - after all I couldn't touch her! The nearest I had got was throwing biscuits to the dog - she could bear to come six feet and get the treat but any closer and she was too scared of me!

Anyway - we went in the garden and the owner showed me the dog playing ball and we could play by me throwing the ball - the dog fetching it and the owner taking it from the dog and giving it to me. I was convinced that the dog would be different at my house and it wasn't dog aggressive because there were two little submissive dogs there as well.

We fetched a muzzle - the owner put the dog in my dog cage and home we went. At home the dog got out of the car and Paul had to push with a broom to get her into the house. My dogs said "this is our house". Dog retired to sit in the corner. Three hours later I removed the muzzle and started hand feeding. It took about a week for her to realise that I really was in charge and she was then a completely different dog. She was re-homed and has had a happy life.

No doubt what so ever in my mind that we create the dog we want or in some cases don't. There are some people who say our dog is dead quiet when she is on her own with me but rushes about and goes mad when the kids are home - as if this was the dogs fault!!!

You could take the same puppy and make it quiet and gentle or bolshy or nervous in the same way you can with children, it is all to do with how they are brought up.

Geri

[buliebuse]

How could you think collies weren't loving???
Easy - just don't like the breed if I'm being honest.
Ju

[temwani]

Ju,

WHAT WHAT ...... HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!

You truly are a heathen - everyone knows collies are adorable.

and they don't slobber ;D

[buliebuse]

Come , Come
How can God be a heathen?
Ju

[bulieboerboels]

We have found with Boerboels that they seem to respond better to a quiet voice command for most of the time and by doing so they tend to react quicker to a raised voice which tends to be used in emergencys.Regards Paul.

[mayahund]

Geri you write; //"You could take the same puppy and make it quiet and gentle or bolshy or nervous in the same way you can with children, it is all to do with how they are brought up."//

I am also a strong believer in this. When Chili was growing up I made a point of changing dog at the dog club - letting somebody else train for 5 minutes or so with Chili and me with their dog. I did it for 2 reasons, main one; Chili should be obedient to anybody who holds her leash not just to me, who hasn't walked somebody else's dog and it's been murder to get it to listen without having to take of the kid gloves, and second, to see how she would react to other people. Mainly thinking that IF something happens to me and I can't take my 60 kg dog out then other people should be able to do so without problems.

Ewa

[countryboy]

I'm a real dog lover like most on this board but i have to side with Ju on this one.I really don't get the collie thing.I dont dislike the dog as a whole but think there more suited to working than a pet.
Ooooo! sorry,blickered vision! Perhaps but they certainly don't do it for me.Everyone to there own!
I use to exercise my vizsla with a lady who had four Collie's was an obedience and agility enthusiast all the trophies and was a very clever lady with dogs.I learnt a lot just watching her interact with her dogs but she always said you needed to do something with a collie.Agilty etc.
Having said that I'm a great believer in that it applies to all dogs in some way.Gundog, Terrier, guard!

As regards a soft voice my vizsla was the same and fortunately i learnt this early on.Think this is why i liked the whistle because i could blow it as load as i liked while biting down on it in frustration.
I chewed thru many like this!

[mayahund]

I 've had spaniels for 20 odd years or so and I must say I had quite some difference in character in my dogs. Some would be laid back and easygoing, some would be high strung hunters but they sure all gave me a ride for my money ;D

Most people over here has a picture o spaniels being like the lady in Lady and the tramp - well Forget that They will test you until their dying days and I love it! I want my dogs to have a mind of their own and not just do as I tell them pronto! Their energy level is also very high since they're hunters!! Thats why we changed breed I think - with growing age its nice to have a dog with a little lower threshold for work! Even though I must admit both my bb's have a high work drive. They're quite happy to laze about at home but given a chance to go to work they do so with great enthusiasm.

I also work my dogs on a buffalo whistle, started doing it on the spaniels and just continued with the bb's. Works fine! Don't you just loathe it when you go to the park or other public places and people are screaming their heads off for their dogs? I find it embarrassing!
Ewa

[temwani]

Hi Ewa,

That is really interesting. I used to run a small pet dog training group, only basic obedience but we also used to switch dogs. I think it is good for people to work different dogs because it makes you re-think how you are handling yours. Some dogs are so sensitive and others need stronger commands.

I am interested in your description of your springer spaniels. My sister would like a collie but her husband will only have springers.

Geri

[countryboy]

Sorry JU.!!
Found the spell check but the Bloody wine keeps making press the post reply button before I've sorted it all out!!!

Simon

[mayahund]

I also have a strong believe in that the first 12 weeks in a puppies life is all important to how the grown dog will become.

If the puppies are shut in a room with their mum and never gets to see anybody but the breeder, no social training or anything, I believe you get a dog that is less prepared for life than a puppy thats born f.ex in the kitchen with noises and people coming and going.

There has been a little research done on this that I have read and it all points in that direction.
Ewa

[mayahund]

Your brother in law is a very wise man Geri )
Ewa

[countryboy]

Hi Ewa.

Must congratulate you on sticking with spaniel's for twenty years!!

I was always told the best type of working spaniel was one on the border of being out of control.

Must admit I've been on many a pheasant shoot and watched a spaniel wreck a drive by running in but when you see a good one work it is nice.

It is what got me interested in Shooting.Dog work.!

Never interested in pulling the trigger but seeing a dog hunt well is superb.

I went for the HPR with the vizsla and i must say to see a dog you've trained freeze on point when five guns are watching is one of those special moments in dogie life

Simon

[mayahund]

My spaniel era isn't over - one day when hubby isn't watching and I find the "perfect" spaniel (the one you describe as "being borderline out of control" sounds like what i am looking for ;D) Gotta have something to keep the bed warm

Me and hubby seriously considered getting a hunting permission but we realized that neither of us would be able to shot Bambi so we gave it up! We have plenty of friends that hunt though so that was never an issue. I found it rather more interesting in training for the search for hurt animals, you know when you shot an animal and it doesn't die, then you have to call in what we call "after search" dogs. You don't use the hunters for this.

Over here spaniels also is used for drug and mine search - they're bloody brilliant at it!

I truly see your point in the Vizla scenery!
Ewa

[buliebuse]

Hi Ewa/ Simon
Glad I'm not the only one who uses a whistle.
Like you said Ewa there is nothing more annoying than 'listening' to an owner shout at their dog at the top of their voice expecting it not to then become excited/obey to recall.
Ju

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Ewa as you know all our puppies are home reared in the house,We feel it gives them a better start with hearing all the usual household noises and as any visitors arrive they have a puppy thrust on them.After 10 minutes we will swap the puppy for another one.They have their first vaccinations at 6 weeks and they are then put in the back of the car and taken off to the local supermarket,Back of the car open and the nearest people as they walk by are invited to come and make a fuss of the puppies.
Regards Paul.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I personally think that owner influence is the no. 1 factor in dog behaviour. We do advise people to steer clear of different situations, eg. owning 2 male dogs of the same age, but this is not to say it is impossible. Our opinion is that most people do not have the skills to make this situation work.
Some of our buyers want, or need, to be able to trust their males around other males so we have made a weekend socialisation class to teach the owners, and their dogs to interact, what signals to look for, and which situations to control before they get out of hand.
here are a couple of pictures of some of the males that come to the classes. They are all "teenagers" here.

[temwani]

Hi Shaun,

Those guys look like they are having fun and sorting out their pack order through play. It must be really interesting watching them interact with each other.

Who give the most trouble? Owners or dogs or is that a stupid question

[buliebuse]

Its got to be owners 100% all the time ;D
Ju

[temwani]

Now Ju, they might not all be like you!