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Post by helena on Aug 28, 2006 17:05:06 GMT
This may be a sensetive subject. When you read about the boerboel,you often read that is is a companion and guard/protection dog. But how many breeders test their breedingdogs ability to guard and protect? I have heard breeders ( other breeds ) say that their breed do not need training they guard and protect by themselves. This is quite dangerous to say, i believe. All dogs can bark and seem vicious,but what happenes when that is not enaugh?Not many dogs can handle that.Guardbreeds or not.. About the boerboel,i think to few breeders focus on breeding boerboeldogs for what they were destined for. I know a person that bought a boerboel for the ability to guard,but his dog does not care much for it.He loves the dog,but he is disappointed with the breeder.It is not what he payed for. I am not saying that breeders should breed vicious aggressive dogs,simply test their breeding dogs,so that they,not only look like a boerboel,but act like one to.A boerboel to me is not vicious,but a steady,calm ,confident animal,that only react when something threatenes his family. Not all dogs will be liek this,even if breeders tried to have it.I realize that,but do anyone here knows breeders that goes for temperament too,not just friendly good looking dogs.? I know that Anasha has gotten some nice dogs.( both good character and looks),but otherwise it seems rare to find. Or hav i just met the wrong dogs?  OBS! i am NOT trying to trash any breeder,this is just my personal opinion. |
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Post by bakkies on Aug 28, 2006 18:27:29 GMT
Helena I know what you mean and I agree.
I have put my dog in several situation because I wanted to know how he will react (sadly, only a handfull of people ever did that with their BB here in germany).
He stopped several attacks in different situations but I must admit I was not satisfied with his work at the Alano event. He did not stop one of the 3 aggressors. He was handled by my boyfriend, this was maybe the worst mistake.
The situations were so hard (they worked with canisters to hold the dog away, they hide themselves in closed horse trailers where the dog had to go through canisters and plastik foil). It was just too much for him. This was the first time he failed.
I worked him in Schutzhund lessons but that is not the right sport for him. He really loves the tug, but with the sleeve, he takes it too seriously.
He loves my friends and familiy and I can trust him with them. And with children. But I do not trust him with strangers, he needs some time. Some he will like, some few he hates. Sometimes that´s a little bit too much
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Post by helena on Aug 28, 2006 20:01:43 GMT
Ok,i hope to see more people in Sweden test their dogs also.But it is hard to find people that are willing to test dogs other than the common "sport-dogs:german shepherds,doberman etc..
Both my boerboels were tested.
Natt,a female i had,was tested in a real threat situation.We were out walking when we met a guy high on drugs.She did not see him until he hwas about to meters away,but when she did.
She roared ( yes roared,not growled) and went for him,and had bit him in the stomache if i had not hold on to the leash.
The guy turned around and walked away.
Sabrina i had tested cause i was curious if she really had protection in her.She did not look like it.
A friend of mine is educated in protection training,and he tested her.A light test. Sabrina barked,but when he approached me,she backed away-When he backed away,she went back to me.
No protection in her at all.She does not even bark when the doorbell rings.
Dont get me wrong,i am happy that i have Sabrina.Natt was too much of a handfull,very nervous,untrusty around people.
Sabrina is very laidback.It was like a cool breeze to get her in my home after Natt had been put down.
But she lack the breeds trait.guard/protecting instinct.
A little off topic.:
My amstaff was tested also,my friend said he had tested 5 amstaffs and my Irwin was the best dog he had had on the sleeve.I trained IPO/shutzhund with him but he developed some kind of brain sickness,i had to stop the training.
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 29, 2006 8:28:39 GMT
Hi Helena/ Meike
Sweden & Germany must take a different approach to the BB characteristics.
I don't know if you have access to UKBC site but I have been 'slated' over this topic - reason being as follows:
Buse we always thought was one big softie - not even raising her head most of the time when people let themselves in or knock etc when myself & my husband are there.
Then a couple of weeks ago my Dad who Buse knows well , went to come in to check on my little girl & she would not let him as we were not about.
This we were pleasantly surprised by & certainly have no problems with. That is what she was bred for. She has in no way ever showed any agression when we are about , it was good that it was my Dad & not a stranger otherwise we would not know.
It good to know not everybody is PC.
Regards
Ju
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Post by bakkies on Aug 29, 2006 8:59:40 GMT
Helena, funny, Spike never bites, really NEVER. We had a lot of people comming into our house when it was biuld. I was not there. He was just having fun with these guys. My car was damaged by some kids. Spike was laying just 2 m away - nothing. So this was one of the coices for a Boerboel. Bakkies was 4 moth old when he stopped someone in the wood picking berries. Then he was about a year, I had someone in my house painting a wall. Everything was fine. But then I heared him screaming and Bakkies standing in front of him, growling. I asked what was wrong and he said that he left the house and came back. WITHOUT ME It´s funny, he is nearly 3 years now, always very submissive. But right now he tries to test me and my new boyfriend. When I tell him to go away from the table he looks at me and growls. Really funny. You should see his face when we just laugh and tell him that he has to do it, no matter what he thinks about it. Hope this will stop - he really is a late bloomer. Shaun, Anne, he will freak out when he sees you again. He still loves his mommy and daddy |
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Aug 29, 2006 9:13:44 GMT
We think that times are changing for Bakkies, the situation at your home now is very unstable for Bakkies. He has been used to you as number 1, Spike as number 2 and himself as number 3.
Suddenly Spike has become more and more ill and is losing status, Olli has moved in and he does not know where this leaves him or you.
We think that as the situation becomes more clear to him, he will adapt to the new pack order.
We are looking forward to seeing you on the 9th of September.
Anne and Shaun
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Post by helena on Aug 29, 2006 11:28:21 GMT
Meike,ever heard of Cesar Millan? he is terrific dog trainer.You can get great tip from him!
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Post by bakkies on Aug 30, 2006 8:09:12 GMT
Thanks Helena, I have no problems with him, it´s just like Shaun says. He tries to find a place, and maybe step one step higher in the pack order. He will learn that this is not possible. The dogs can manage it themselves, we both know what to do and what not. No need for a dog trainer. I train him often, he is a good worker. Seems like he is a little bit frustrated because Spike had an operation and he did not get a lot of attention from me. I know it´s not ok but I have a job and an old operated dog that is incontinent. I have worked him yesterday, right now he wants more, more more.. Sometimes I think he thinks he is a Malinois  Oh Shaun, I bought the raspberry tart |
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Post by mayahund on Aug 30, 2006 9:43:33 GMT
Hi Ju! Don't know if I agree with you on Sweden having annother view on the topic of dogaggression than the UKBC board has. I think most people over her wants a big dog that will look the part but not do the thing (so to speak). Mainly because they probably don't realize what hard work is involved in finding a correct bb for starters. The problem we are up against in Scandinavia is that we have some breeders that produces fearful and/or fearful/aggressive dogs and that is really no hit! I myself wouldn't want to walk about with a loaded gun in my pocket. I lived for a bit over 2 years with a bb that was fearful, afraid of her own shadow. However much we socialized her and worked her nothing helped. Thats why a few of us over here are trying to get bb-owners interested in mentaltesting their dogs. The problem for us is that since the breed is not recognized by the FCI or the SKK (Swedish Kennel Union) we are not allowed to test our dogs in the ordinary program supplied by the SKK/SBK. We have been discussiong with the SKK for a couple of years now but they just wont listen. Finally this spring we found an independent company that tests dogs of all kinds (and often evaluate s.c problem dogs). They have over 40 years of experince from the dogworld and are quite reputable. So now we're working on getting the swedish owners to start testing their bb's in order to put a bit of pressure on the breeders that breeds fear, fear/aggressive dogs. Our aim is that newcomers/puppybuyers not only will ask for HD/AD X-rays from the breeder but also for metaltested parents. Long way to go but Rome wasn't build in 2 days Ewa |
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 30, 2006 10:29:15 GMT
Hi Ewa
I agree with what you're saying.
It would be interesting if we could set up a mental testing programme here in the UK.
Ju
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Aug 30, 2006 10:43:43 GMT
Any mental testing would have to be judged by an impartial and experienced person, otherwise it has little value. There are so many people in the BB world that pretend to know more than they do, some only have one or two dogs and yet feel they have the bulk of knowledge when talking about Boerboels, we have owned a 100 or more, and yet we feel that we are still learning.
This type of testing needs training of the dogs and at the moment we do not have the time for that training. We have 20 dogs so the training and testing would have to happen here. I can assure you all that mental testing is very high on our agenda, but until we get the time to do it properly, we will have to rely on our own judgements. Remember also that SABT will exclude members/breeders for doing certain types of training.
What we would like, is for people to try and work out what sort of tests were wanted, and then it will be possible to organise an independant authority to carry out the tests. That way the same tests could be carried out regardless of which country the dog finds itself in. One accepted test for all.
I do not think that any of the breed organisations will cooperate. Sometimes I feel that the answer to the problems we have in communication with the SA organisations could be solved by having an European register. Just think all that waiting time disappeared?
Shaun
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Post by mayahund on Aug 30, 2006 11:46:56 GMT
Having a test that was built just for bb's would be fantastic! But that will probably take a long time from now to set up when considering the facts you Shaun present in ypur post. In the meantime I find it helpfull the way we're working it; A private company with lots of experince in all kind of breeds does a test that is suitable for all kind of dogs (same test no matter what breed). The test is available in a few diffrent places in Sweden so any owner can find a place to do it in. All bb's that take the test will be tested in the same way and get a testresult (on paper) to go with it. Then it's up to a breedorganization/clu to evaluate the pros and cons in the breed from this test. I also think you have to be a bit careful when you talk about most people that talk, only owned 2 bb's and think they know everything. Most of us haven't owned more than one or 2 bb's but will not in any way call ourself experts but atleast I do my posting hoping that people will gain knowledge from it and maybe find something helpfull in it. If this board only was for people that owned lots of bb's I think you'd be rather lonely in here Ewa |
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Post by Shaun Eric Ewing on Aug 30, 2006 12:05:55 GMT
be a bit careful when you talk about most people that talk, only owned 2 bb's and think they know everything. Ewa That´s not quite what I wrote or meant Ewa, most people are limited to the experience they have regardless of the amount of Boerboels they have, and they are quite aware of that fact and go to these forums to broaden their experience, maybe find something they can use. We come here for the same reason. What I was talking about is the few who seem to want to dictate to others how they should experience the Boerboel, when in fact their own knowledge and experience gives a relatively unsteady platform to stand on. I do not think that anyone who writes here is on an ego trip, on the contrary we all seem to be writing about our experiences with the various aspects of owning dogs and sharing that experience on a "pick what you want to use and disregard the rest" basis. Shaun  |
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Post by mayahund on Aug 30, 2006 12:19:14 GMT
I knew exactly what you meant ;D But maybe the rest of the board didn't  Ewa |
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Post by bakkies on Aug 30, 2006 17:40:55 GMT
Testing is easy - but it´s hard to find out how someone wants the Boerboel to be. A lot of people who own a Boerboel will test them with different situations but will not let their dog bite in a test. And that is something that (in my opinion) is neccesary. I think we all want the BB to be fearless and selfassured, it should guard and pay attention to whatever threat may happen to the owner. It must love children. It has to have drive and agility, a stable mind (ok, here comes the problems of the definition). Someone else may want something different. Like Shaun once said: Everyone wants a guard dog until they have one |
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Post by temwani on Aug 30, 2006 18:01:21 GMT
I don't see why biting should be necessary. I always thought my dog was a bit soft - those of you who have met Tem will know that she is the most friendly BB and just loves being cuddled by everybody. But I got a big surprise when I took her to work with me in the school holidays. I was quietly tidying up my classroom and Tem was asleep on the floor. Two men and a child came to the door and she flew to the door - barking like mad and terrifying everyone. I called her to me and told her that they were friends and she was then her usual friendly self. Wherever I went in the school Tem guarded the area around me - letting me know that someone was coming and letting them know that she wouldn't let them harm me. It made me realise that I would only need to be slightly nervous in a situation for her to step up and be ready to defend me to the death. This to me is why I want a guard dog. I also have two little dogs who whilst they bark would only lick an intruder to death. They serve a different purpose.
I think it is the message going down the lead that makes so many dogs edgy at the appraisals in the UK.
I think Shaun is right too many people want a guard dog without realising what it means.
Geri
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Post by temwani on Aug 30, 2006 18:09:28 GMT
I forgot to mention Tem is Oubie's full litter brother, I wish I had been able to have him from a puppy as well - there was no reason for him to be a problem dog when he was eight weeks old and he didn't attack me when he came back despite his owner being terrified that he would. He has always been friendly to Paul and me and we have been able to introduce him to other sensible people but only off lead. There is no way I want him put to sleep - he just has to be managed carefully and undergo more training. He is not a dog to take to the local park and probably never will be!
Geri
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 30, 2006 18:27:57 GMT
Hi Geri
I agree with the aspect of message being sent down the lead etc by the owner.
That doesn't say much for me as all Buse wanted was to roll over onto her back & be tummy tickled.
I didn't see anyone there who'd I like to tickle my tummy !
Hope that came out the way it was mean't to - as in humorous
Ju
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Post by bakkies on Aug 30, 2006 19:19:25 GMT
The problem is that most people think that if a dog bites he is dangerous/agressive/ not controllable. That not true.
When you own a guard dog and you want to test it, then you have to test if it would bite or run away (or bark of fear). You do not know if your dog would defend you unless he did it.
My dog is trained in Schutzdienst, Wachhund and as a service dog by a security/military service dog trainer. I have the permission from the SABT to do this kind of training with him. I can understand everyone who do not like this kind of sport. If you do not know what it is about and know what you are doing, you can ruin a dog.
But the question was about an official BB test and if you test a guard dog you have to test if he will protect you or run away. I have seen people thinking that their dog will protect them, they have hidden behind the owners and were scared to death. And they toled all these stories about their dogs reacting like really good guard dogs.
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 30, 2006 19:24:05 GMT
hi
I would be interested in learning more about Bakkies training etc
Ju
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Post by bakkies on Aug 31, 2006 9:13:30 GMT
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Post by bakkies on Aug 31, 2006 9:23:50 GMT
You can see that I tried to teach him these basic commands with a ball as a reward. He is now able to take 3 hiding-places without a reward. The heelwork is also muuuch better (if not, something must have went very wrong ) I give him a reward when he does something new very good, or after obedience (we work for appx. 10 Minutes) We have stared tracking which was evry good He loves it. The first time I forgot to put food on the track *grmpf* and he found my footsteps without it. Just love my little boy |
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 31, 2006 11:25:17 GMT
Hi Meike Loved the video Couldn't work out how to get into the other sites you gave. Yep a holiday would be good. Do you ever find with Bakkies that he doesn't put the brakes on in time ? Ju |
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Post by bakkies on Aug 31, 2006 12:21:54 GMT
Hi Geri, you need to be registered to read the post/see the pictures. Here are a few   Brakes? Does Tem have brakes? I knew something was wrong with my Boerboel Bakkies with 5 months   Hope these aren´t too many pictures |
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Post by buliebuse on Aug 31, 2006 17:34:54 GMT
Hi Meike Sucessfully managed to log in - but being a lazy Brit will have to wait for my son to come back at the weekend to iterpret for me  Ju |
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Post by bakkies on Sept 1, 2006 10:58:04 GMT
Hi Ju,
you can also choose the english forum.
For all non german users: You can choose the language of this forum in your profile.
Just click "Profile" and "Einstellungen ändern" - scroll down and choose your language "Sprache wählen:"
See ya
Meike
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Post by helena on Sept 2, 2006 13:21:04 GMT
"You do not know if your dog would defend you unless he did it."
WORD!
"If you do not know what it is about and know what you are doing, you can ruin a dog. "
word,again ; )
"I have seen people thinking that their dog will protect them, they have hidden behind the owners and were scared to death. "
Yes this is a big problem.A friend of mine got a hungarian kuvac ( sheep-guarding type of breed),it was a total protection dog the breeders said.Well he acted liek one,was suspicious about strangers,barked and growled.Seemed confident.Then one day his girlfriend was out with the dog.Met a bounch of drunk men.The dog barked and growled.The drunk man just walked foreward,and slapped the girl in the face.Were was the dog? ruinning to thr woods,with the drunk guy after,screaming and cursing.
Another girl had an ex-boyfriend that stalked her.She got herself a neomastiff.Breeder said,very good protection dog.How it ended? the ex-boyfriend got into her home and beat up both her and the dog.
I was a believer in natural protection instinct,but i am not anymore.I feel most dogs need to be trained.No BREED is great to protect,but there INDIVIDUALS that is good for protection.Some are better than others.
I am not saying a jack russel should be great,you need a big dog.What i mean is,if you are looking for a prectiondog,dont fall for:this breed ahs natural protection,need no training.
If you find out it was wrong,it could be to late.
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Post by helena on Sept 3, 2006 13:02:42 GMT
This is what i look for,in a way. The presa(dogo)canario is a guard/protectiondog. Not alla presakennels breed for working ability but this kennel in Germany does.They TEST all dogs before breeding etc. link www.alanos.de/I would like something like this for the boerboel,some type of test.But i would like it to include a companiontest also,not only a bitetest. I know it is easy for me to talk,i have only have to dogs.But the fact is:the boerboel is not only bred to be a great companiondog but to be a great protector as well.If noone test the breeding dogs,the protection quality will fade.It will exsist,but not to the degree it was. This has happen to the american staffordshire terrier. The breed was once the american pitbull terrier.But the amstaff is a pitbull,bred to look good,not to fight.While some amstaffs are great fighters,this ability is not there is it once was.They do not stand a chance with a pitbull in the pit. I hope something happenes at the boerboelfront.I hope there will be some sort of test. The american bulldog is a breed that has tests to see if the dog still has the stuff in him that his ancestors had. You got a test called IRON DOG.The test includes:weight pull,hang time,sprint and hard hits on the sleeve. If anyone wants to find some tests for the boerboel,i will support it as much as i can. Even with tests there will be dogs with more or less boerboelcharacter,but the chances would be higher to get a dog with the character one wants if one breed for it..this is my personal opinion. |
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Post by helena on Sept 3, 2006 13:13:56 GMT
the presa / dogo breeder tells about thir breeding ,great to breed for both beauty and working ability:
Dear Dogfriend,
we want to give you some informations about our breeding kennel, our breeding program and our breeding philosphy.
"De la Arena Kennels" selection and breeding pure Dogo Canarios out of the best spanish lines. We have used old working lines. The dogs in this lines was Guarddogs, Fightingdogs, Protectiondogs and Catchdogs (Hoghunting) and Catle dogs. We use our dogs for the traditional work tasks!
The kennel "De la Arena" is a performance kennel and no show kennel!
We select and breed purebreed Dogo Canarios for health, character, performance, function, workability and typ!
Our dogs can do what they had to do for many hundred years ago.
The breeding rules of our club (AVD e.V.) are worldwide the hardest officiel clubrules in the points "Health", "Character", "Performance".
All of our potentiell breeding dogs must absolvate many tests before we can use them for breeding.
Our breeding dogs have passed:
-a big Healthtest (incl. ED- and HD- X-ray).
-a endurance/fitness-test (25km runing on bike).
-a charactertest in environment situations (the dog must show that he is friendly to friendly peoples and that he have no fear in stress situations).
-a charactertest in danger situations (biting a aggressive stranger).
-a working test (sport protection test).
-a typ and optic test.
-also many of our breeding dogs are tested at hunting wildboars (Hog catching).
So we demand of a breeding dog that he is health and his character must be open and balance. The dog must be nice in family and in friendly situations but the dog must protect against aggressive peoples. We prefer a dog with absolut strong nerves and the right drive for work. The dog also must have a athletic and workable buliding.
Everybody have a differend opinium about beauty, so for us the health, the function and the character is more importend than the optic. But of course a breeding dog must have optic typ. We are no Show breeder right, but we only bred with pure breed Dogo Canarios so we do not want to produce dogs that looks like a big Pitbull or a small Mastino Napoletano or something like that.
I can promiss you that all our breeding dogs are pure bred dogs and bred by us or imported by us. We also have tested the character of the familys (parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents ect.) of all the dogs we have imported.
Dogs who shows fear or aggression are ban for the breeding!
We use our dogs as Servicedogs for Guarding and Protection in our Security-Service-Companie. We also train the most of our dogs in Personal Protection (Mondioring,KNPV,Schuzhund) and we go hunting with our dogs.
Our pupies are good sozialtrained and have get much care. They all get papers.
The pups are dewormed, microchiped and vaccinated (Veterinary family).
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Post by bakkies on Sept 4, 2006 11:16:46 GMT
Hi Helena, thanks for the translation!!! You can find pictures of the event on this page. This is the club were we did the testing, their have great dogs. It seems like their breeding program is working. BB breeders should inform themselves about testing and hopefully we will have BBs with this kind of temperament. They also did a companion test in a small house with 20 people making noise and touching the Alanos. I must admit, I did not do it with Bakkies and have lost 10 points on that. The most important sentence is Dogs who shows fear or aggression are ban for the breeding! You can find some pictures of the training here alano.versionx.de/scripts/main.php?g_menue_pfad=0006-0001-0006&g_lang=deThey did not put pictures of the night event online. |
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