boerboel,guard/protectiondog?

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Meike I think you may be correct in saying what one person expects from their Boerboel may not be the same as someone else.Unfortunatly in the UK we have a lot of people who think that all boerboels should be the same.As we have found no two boerboels are exactly the same in nature/temperament etc. and I am sure most people here would agree.I bought my first Boerboel expecting a guard dog.I was not dissapointed.Had I expected it to be a pet then I would have been very dissapointed.Some of my dogs are fine with everyone others are not.Some of my dogs like children others do not.I do not consider any of my dogs to have a more correct temperament than others.Some temperaments are probably more desirable than others but this brings us back to personal preferences.All of my dogs however are fine with me.Regards Paul.

[bakkies]

HiPaul,

yes that´s true. But is´t that a breeding goal? To produce dogs that have a homogeneous temperament and look?

Meike

[helena]

But the breed standard says how the boerboel should be,doesnt it?
The SABT educate apprasialjudges,maybe they could come up with a test of some sort?

[bakkies]

Thta´s why found it so interesting to see the Alanos. They should have the same temperament as the Boerboel. maybe I have seen too few BBs, even Bakkies knows how to work the differences were enormous.

I do not like the very big BBs because I want a dog that can work. Other people prefer huge dogs. Sometimes I think we have performance dogs and show dogs. Hope the BB does not end were the AmStaff/AmPit or German Shepered is now.

Are there any breeders breeting for performance? Are there any buyers that want this kind of dogs?

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

We have made the mistake of breeding 2 high drive working dogs together. The people who were interested wanted exactly what they got, but in an alarming amount of cases, the dogs were too much for the owners. A Boerboel can be a very strong dog, in many cases they can be too strong for the average owner. My advice to breeders, unless you have some really experienced people for your working lines, do not breed them, and certainly do not sell them to mr and mrs joe average.

Shaun

[bakkies]

There is nothing worst than a performance dog in the wrong hands. Together with the strenght (pysically and mentally) it can be a desaster (although I love these high drive dogs, so glad I got one )

[helena]

But the boerboel was bred to be a working dog.If you do not breed for it,do you have a boerboel,or a dog that looks like a boerboel and have the name?
I believe the boerboel as a breed is starting to go were the amstaff went.
I know a working boerboel can be a handful,but i do not think the boerboel is a "every-persondog".It should be suspicious abput strangers,love its family and guard them when nessecary.
One can immediatly tell that this kind of dog is not as easy as a poodle in the city.
It is,what i can see,best suited on farms,or on the countryside.Both the boerbeol i had and the one i have seems best suited on the countryside,were they can be with their loved ones .
Not everybody can handle a workingbred boerboel.But todays dogs ,not bred to work,is different .They are more mellow,even though they still have the guardinstinct.But i am not sure most dogs have what it takes in a real threat situation.
In todays society where crime and violence are increasing,there is need for a real boerboel for some people.
Is the boerboel going to continue to be a boerboel,or are they becoming more liek bull mastiffs?a breed with similair looks,but without that real guard/protection instinct.

[helena]

What is a proper boerboel?
For me a dog that is calm when all is well,but can react o threat without fear or hesitation.
I like Sasha Ernest stories about his dogs,that is exaclty a kind of dog i want the boerboel to be.
www.moloss.com/sasha/und.html

[bakkies]

Have you seen BBs like that in reality or in a test?

[helena]

Nope,that is the problem,i only mailed and talked to Sasha that owns the kennel.
I think we need dogs like this.And breeders that are careful about which people to sell puppies/dogs to.
A good start,i think,is to get the breedclub to make some sort of test for breedingdogs.
I know that there is no way every dog will be perfect just because a test,but i believe chances are higher to breed dogs that are as close to the standard in character,not just appearance.

[helena]

I saw that two? boerboels have joined the IRON DOG competition.It was developed for the american bulldog,but all breeds can join,i guess.
www.irondog.biz/
i am not saying the IRON DOG is a great test for the boerboel,it is for bulldog-breeds,but i just saw that boebroels and cane corsos as well have done it.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

We have to look at things from a different angle. We only get one or two serious enquiries about working dogs per year. If we were to breed all our dogs for maximum drive, we would only sell 2 puppies per year.

In any normal litter, there are dogs with different levels of drive to suit the tastes and needs of different people. It will always be like that, had you bought a puppy from us we would have talked in depth about what you need the dog for and the circumstances that the dog would have to live in. A high drive dog hat has to live alone in a house all day while the owner is at work would be a recept for disaster.

The truth about the working aspect of the Boerboel is more hype than anything else, most of the Boerboels we met in SA were used by small families wanting a dog that keeps unwanted people out of the grounds.

Most SA Boerboels are not socialised at all, they live outside the house and they never come in. They are not and never have been used for bitework, there use as a herding dog has not been actual, they stay by the house as a rule to guard this.

We think that it is great that owners train their dogs for the different aspects of dog sports, but this is new ground. Enjoy your dog the way that you feel is best, however I am sorry to see that some are marketing this dog as the answer to all working dog requirements.

It is very dangerous to listen to any one breeder about what this dog has been used for. The best thing to do is to take a trip to SA and meet lots of owners and breeders, this way you can form a point of view based on lots of different aspects.

Anne and Shaun

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

bakkies said:

HiPaul,

yes that´s true. But is´t that a breeding goal? To produce dogs that have a homogeneous temperament and look?

Meike

It may well be a goal for others, but it is not a goal for us. We worship on the altar of difference. We feel that as long as the Boerboel is as different and varied as it is, there is a chance to avoid the mistakes that other homogene races have. If people breed for the same "look", the mistake of over using a male that has mistakes that are invisible to the eye is very real, therefore we only use males for a certain amount of pups and then, even though they give good pups, we start using another and retire the first.

The goal of creating dogs with the same temperament is simply not possible to achieve. In any pack of dogs, nature has given each individual different possitive attributes. The succesful pack uses these differences to make themselves strong, utilising each individual´s strong points and covering each other´s weak points.

If all had the same temperament, how would having a leader or a follower be possible? Yet both of these attributes are essential to having good pack order, and this is neccesary for the survival of the pack.

We hear the same about so-called fearless dogs. Any dog that does not have fear is a danger to the pack as it will lead them into situations where survival is not possible. A brave dog is not a dog without fear, it is a dog that overcomes its fear to achieve a neccesary goal. Fear is an essential tool to survive. Be carefull of "fearless" dogs, they will get you into trouble.

Shaun

[bakkies]

Hi Shaun,

it´s hard to discuss that in english for me. I meant that the goal should be to produce dogs that look like the standard and have the temperament the standard describes.

I know all dogs are different, but wouldn´t it be good to breed for these things?

Any dog has fear and agression - but up to a certain point. I know you do not excuse fear biters or dogs that are completely out of the standard. That´s what I meant. Does anyone understand what I mean?

It´s just these few things:
The Boerboel is reliable, obedient and intelligent, with a strong watchdog instinct. It is self-assured and fearless.

I do not want any BB to have prey drive, or be excactly 65 kgs.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

To be honest Meike, we should remember that the Boerboel was started with a group of less than 80 dogs. In my mind it would be catastophic to try and limit any more intentionally. The last estimate I heard for a species to be able to survive without developing too many illnesses is 10000 examples. 78 examples is asking for trouble.

Anne and I agree that as long as the dog scores within the 75% required for registration, we will not omit it from our breeding, of course that dog has to have other things that are usefull, for example good health and good temperament, then looks are secondary. You have to remember that the score is not only dependant on the dog, it is also dependant on the person giving the score. What if they are wrong?

We do not breed on dogs that are nervous per se, but sometimes a dog´s nervous behaviour comes just as much from the handler as the from the dog. That is why kennel dogs can be more nervous than housedogs. A housedog gets to see many different things and experiences many different impulses than a kennel dog. If a kennel dog has never seen anyone but it´s owner, it will not react the same way as a dog that is used to meeting many people. Are the genes of a pet dog more valuable than a kennel dog´s because it tackles contact with humans differently? That is difficult to answer, because we all know that a dog´s behaviour is to some degree also dependant on it´s previous experience.

Shaun

[bakkies]

Hi Shaun,

you are right. I do not care about scorings either. Everyone favours something else, that´s why I think we will never have a common BB. Everyone has to choose themselves, that´s why I say my opinion does not count at all, it´s just what I would like the Boerboel to be.

[mayahund]

Meike;
You mention a couple of times that a bb should be "self-assured" - Could you please explain to me just how you mean by that?

When is a bb self -assured?

Ewa

[sandaharr]

I always think of self-assured as being a confident dog,not afraid to investigate things/places.Our Zeke is very self assured,he never dives headlong into situations but calmly takes stock and then decides whether it's worth his effort or not to investigate,Razzy is just what I would call a 'breenjer',just dives into any situation,with no regard for her own safety,we fell down a multi rabbit burrow this morning due to this attitude!! ::)Sandra.

[bakkies]

Hi Ewa,

yes confident, layed back until something happens that he thinks is a thread (and I mean a real thread, not just someone saying Hello). Not afraid of normal noises, places or persons. An open eye but relaxed until something bad happens.

Ewa, you shpul come over for a coffee or two, it´s very hard to explain this in english.

Sandra, that sound very good, I would love to meet your dogs

[sandaharr]

Hi there,you are welcome over anytime,preferably when pups are here so you can give me a hand!! ;D Sandra.

[bakkies]

I shouldn´t spend my holiday in Ireland anymore.I have heard Scotland is also very nice, especially with PUPS!

[sandaharr]

Try and work it so that you are here for the weaning period,that's much harder than when they are just born!!
So,shall we say the last 2 weeks in October!

[bakkies]

I would really love to come, especially because it´s my birthday then. Hope we can arrange that sometime. And if you ever come to visit germany or denmark, you are always welcome (oh, bring some pups with you )

[mayahund]

Meike; Would love to come for coffe but can't get away as it looks.
And to be quite thruthful - If I could get away I would love to go see the sun !!! Hate this f#***ng weather! It takes 3 (!!!!) days for my washed clothes to dry - I might aswell go live in a tropic climat!!

Anyway, correct me if I get this wrong now,and ofcourse anybody that got a thought on the subject can answer not just Meike because I direct it towards her!!!

Any bb that's not scared or scared-aggressiv is selfassured? Or does it come in diffrent levels? With diffrent names?

Ewa

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Ewa you know you are both welcome to come to the UK anytime.I would like to visit you both in Sweden.Hopefully next year some time as this year is is going to be busy.I will be in Denmark around Oct/November as Toska is going to see Tarzan again.The trouble is with Shaun and Annes hospitality I have to go on a diet afterwards.Regards Paul.

[bulieboerboels]

Hi Meike if ever in England and want a place to stay just contact us you would be more than welcome.Regards Paul.

[helena]

bakkies said:

Hi Shaun,

you are right. I do not care about scorings either. Everyone favours something else, that´s why I think we will never have a common BB. Everyone has to choose themselves, that´s why I say my opinion does not count at all, it´s just what I would like the Boerboel to be."

I disagree,the standard of the boerboel should tell what a boerboel should like.It is guidelines for breeders.
Problem is,breedclubs focus so much on apperance,that they forgot the proper character of the dogs.
As i said,i hope the SABT,or EBBASA could make some sort of temperament test.
I do not not trust the judges to judge self-assured,watchful on the apprasials.My last dog Natt,got a plus for self-assured,she was not,she was a scared ,insecure dog.
Sabrina got a plus for watchful,she is not.
I

[buliebuse]

Hi Ewa
This might be quite interesting for you to read.
We had an incident last night @ 3pm.
All tucked up in bed & heard an almighty commotion.
When we go to bed we leave Buse with the run of the downstairs - the front door is locked but the back conservatory door isn't - but it is shut. Buse knows to jump up & open the door if she needs to go out & then push it back shut again with her nose.
Anyrate went down to see what all the noise was about to see Buse outside in full 'guard' stance looking as big & noisy as possible & an intruder on top of the garage roof wielding my wooden parasol from some of the garden furniture at her to keep her at bay.
He then took one look at me - bear in mind it was 3 in the morning & ran off over the frontside edge of the garage.
That to me is what I expect from a BB.
When visitors come as long as either myself or Clive are about she is as good as gold.If we're not in, no matter how well shes knows them she won't let them in.
Regards
Ju

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I disagree,the standard of the boerboel should tell what a boerboel should like.I do not not trust the judges to judge self-assured,watchful on the apprasials.My last dog Natt,got a plus for self-assured,she was not,she was a scared ,insecure dog.
Sabrina got a plus for watchful,she is not.
I [/quote]

The trouble is that unless the breed registries begin to write 5 cm between the eyes instead of the current "wide between the eyes". The standard is open to interpretation by the person doing the judgeing.

The appraisor has only given his/her opinion about how the dog was in his/her eyes at the time it was appraised. 5 minutes afterwards the dog could be completely different in nature. This is typical of scoring systems where it is a persons opinion and nothing more than that, that creates the score.

Shaun

[helena]

Yes that is my problem,and that is why i think that a test for the boerboelbreed should be good.
it could only be to the breeds best i believe.
As i said,i am not trashing any breeder,more the breedclub that developed a standard but no charactertest.