Normans questions and thoughts

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

This thread is for Normans posts when he tries to take other threads over.

Shaun

[nepstein]

THE THREE MONKEYS

See no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil that is the mantra of too many of our breeders. I can’t let others know of my breeding failures because that information might be used against me. Unfortunately most of them are usually more concerned about themselves than their breed. They don’t want to read or see the many articles and regarding what it takes to maintain a viable breed i.e., capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately. For example they don’t want to read the research that reports that no breed in history, sans work or strenuous testing, has been able to just test their way to better health, whether that be one test, hip x-rays, or fifty others. Beyond testing which is important, breeding history has showed us there is only one way to promote better overall health and viability in a working breed or a line and that is strenuous testing or better yet the work of the breed, there is no other way, period. Just work was sufficient to maintain working breeds/types/dogs for thousands of years why all of the sudden it is seldom considered in breeding. No breed in history, not one, has been able to become better by selecting breed stock because one more closely mirrors there standard, over another, and when you make an effort to inform them of that fact, most don’t want to hear it either. To only feed and breed, no matter the time frame, does not give the breeder enough tangible information in order to improve the character or warrant correct temperament of there working breed.

I don’t come to this conversation without portfolio as I have for over 30 years been training different working breeds in obedience, tracking and protection, and have traveling all over the world in an effort to better understand what it takes to successfully maintain a working breed. If you have read my many posts on these matters you will know that I am about facts not fairytales, research not conjecture, experience not shooting from the hip because it satiates a constituency. I am not married to a breeder or a breed but I have been going out with the truth for a long time and we seem to get along well. Judging from the almost 2000 of you that have read the dialog between Shaun and myself on these many issues, tells me that you are interested and I would like to hear your thoughts, by email if for some reason you feel that expressing your views may in some way not be in your best interest, or if you don’t give a d**n on this forum, and Shaun thanks for the opportunity, I didn't know your cared. Regards Norman

[mayahund]

Hi Norm!
Don't know if this been up before but it's quite interesting and not totally OT ;D

www.pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/codeofsilence/index.html

Ewa

[nepstein]

Thanks Ewa this is just the type of information that is seldom offered but most definitely needed on all breed forums. From that article, I found the following most compelling.

"Winning in the show ring has nothing to do with genetic health. Indeed, a number of the winning dogs are carriers of genetic disorders at the least and, in some instances, are known to have genetic health disorders. While a genetic disorder itself, depending upon type and severity, should never preclude the dog from the genetic pool, it is absolutely mandatory that people be aware of any area of concern in order to breed intelligently. At the very least, the dogs that the dog is bred to must be tested and their backgrounds looked at carefully to limit the possibility of affecting more dogs or making more dogs carriers of the disorder. Yet, because the winners don't want to be labelled as "poor breeders" and lose the accolade of being the best (as well as possible financial loss in not being able to sell puppies or stud fees at as high a price), the "Code of Silence" becomes even more firmly embraced.

The newcomers, because they want to be accepted, avoid talking about the sires and dams that produce poorly, whether it is structure, health or temperament problems. Also, they too now have a financial and emotional investment in addition to wanting to be accepted into the "winners club." They may even recognize trends in one or more lines in their own pedigrees, but refuse to acknowledge these trends and keep them secret for fear of being labelled".

Regards Norman

[mayahund]

Hi Norm!
The thing I see/meet up here is breeders BS ing each other so hard that I find it hard to believe - Now I'm not necessary talking bb breeders, I know bb breeders that don't do this - but just giant breeders in general. I spent quite a bit of time around Neapolitan Mastinos and DdB's aswell.

Went to a bb gathering just last weekend here and as usual I "was struck by silence"! OK there was a few lights in the horizon but some didn't really dare to talk to me since everybody knows were my dogs are from and what that stands for in comparison to having a dog from the Swedish breeder.

Thing is, my 4 bb's all come from different breeders, except for Mubi that was imported to Anasha. I have great experiences and I have really bad experiences with my 4 bb's (as you well now, but the new reader doesn't!) But since I've had bb's since the year 2000 many peoples over here think I'm kind of an expert and I do try to tell them I'm not......I try to excel my own dogs in different ways and test them my way, not for the breeder, not for me having the "best dog" but in order to see 2 things; 1 Do my dog's meet MY idea of a mental standard for the bb and 2 Does it look anything like MY idea of what a bb should look like after seeing soo many and attending soo many appraisals!


Now I know you well enough to know that you will try to hook the bait on me now! Therefore I will try to explain myself first ;D I do believe that since there's such a variety in looks available regarding the bb many people will have a very different idea on the subject of how the perfect bb looks. After meeting some swedes this summer that imported dogs I sure now this to be a truth. Ialso have my idea on how the perfect bb LOOKS! (But looks to me are one of the last issues in a pup/dog!!)

In MY head it all comes down to; What does my dog add THAT IS GOOD to the breed? God knows I've been sitting here with Chili considering that back and forth! In my eyes it's not just a question about confirmation, that's actually last on my list! First of all I look on health issues and then on mentality, if that is ok, then we can talk about confirmation. Many people over here wants high appraisal scores... I say, never mind as long as you got over 75 if you got a dog that got everything else!

In my eyes - My Chili is a low scorer when it comes to appraisal (without ever being appraised so I don't really know!), a high scorer when it comes to temperament and working ability and a medium scorer when it comes to health. So she won't be bred.

Am I making any sense Norm?
And to connect back to OMERTA - This shouldn't be spoken off - but then I'm not a breeder .......but hopefully one day I will be!
Ewa

Ps; Great you have your own place for posting on this board now ;D ;D

Ewa

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I do care Norman, I feel it is important that everybody here has the opportunity and feels welcome in expressing their views. I told you a long time ago that I do not need or want sycophants around me, and I need different views than my own in order to form a better understanding of the whole picture.


Interesting reading the article, and I do agree that many unhealthy dogs have gotten through an appraisal/dog show that should never have been bred on. We have personally seen dogs with such weak back ends and wobbly movement that it wqas a wonder that the owner had not in the least hip tested the dog, and it is frightening that that dog was then qualified to breed on.

I personally support the idea of 2 different databases, 1 for breeding quality dog and 1 for pet quality dogs. That way a dog can still be classed as a Boerboel but never be bred on. And I do agree that there is loads of room for improvement in the standard, so that it also incorporates a clausul or demand that the dog has been tested both for health and for its abilities. Maybe not for the same reasons as you.
I would like to see owners being in some way forced to use more time on their dogs. i.e. If it were a requirement that the dog could walk past 20 other dogs in an unaggressive way, people would be forced to socialise their dogs seriously. That would be a positive for the race and for the individual dog.

I have decided to get some paperwork behind the ideas and impressions we have accumulated over the years. So I am registering myself and maybe Anne too, for an education that will qualify us as "hundeadfærdsterapeut" or in plain English, dog behaviour therapists. The course is for 2 years and costs 30000 Dkr ($6000) per person plus books etc. The course starts in September. I hope at least that it will be interesting and that we will learn some new things about dogs. We will of course share our new knowledge free of charge with this forum.

Regards
Shaun

[mayahund]

Norm!
Today I've done one of my mental tests!!!
And my "pup" came up flying colurs!!!!!
Look at gallerie here or go to Chilis homepage for more photos; chili.arivene.net/index.php?date=1216504800

Might be silly for tests for people that do Schutzhund etc, but to me, if my dog does not work out in my basic environment then maybe I shouldn't breed on it!

I also find it a great way to social/environment train!
Ewa

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:
“I personally support the idea of 2 different databases, 1 for breeding quality dog and 1 for pet quality dogs. That way a dog can still be classed as a Boerboel but never be bred on”.

I decided begin with a *concept* with which we both agree, because I also favor a two tiered system, but mine is a two tiered pedigree system, one gold pedigree and the second a green and these, if and when all conditions are met, will be available to all on one data base. The green one is represents dogs that have passed a legitimate temperament test encompassing movement, agility and some obedience and in addition a health screening and garnered the necessary show rating points but without the a test of courage and the gold pedigree represents a dog that has passed all of the above but also have passed a test of courage. Of course the breeders associations would have to be on board so my suggestion has a snowball’s chance in hell of being approved. I believe the SABT now has a 40,000 dog data base but only one man or small clique has access to it so it is for all intent and purpose useless. Where we part company is I don’t think any dog that just looks like a Boerboel should wear the mantel of the breed unless it can act like one, if called upon, so you were correct when you wrote maybe not for the same reasons. You went on to write, “I would like to see owners being in some way forced to use more time on their dogs. I would also like that, it being understood that the time spent would be other than for breeding and feeding (g). It is really shameful IMO that we have to force handlers to actually train this a working breed.

Shaun wrote in part:
“We have personally seen dogs with such weak back ends and wobbly movement that it wqas a wonder that the owner had not in the least hip tested the dog, and it is frightening that that dog was then qualified to breed on”.

I have also seen physical wrecks but since at the appraisal all dogs have to so is walk around for a bit and then stand still, there are probably many more physical wrecks to be found if they were properly screened for movement and agility. However more often than not I have seen dogs that were temperament wrecks and it was indeed stunning that they were deemed qualified to breed, by judges? It concerns me why you did not mention temperament as an overriding reason that BB should not be bred. Maybe it was one of those reasons that continue to separate us. I noted that you wrote that dogs should be tested for health and abilities. I agree, and would be very interested to know IYO what abilities, if found to be deficient, should preclude a Boerboels from breeding. And Shaun welcome aboard and you can forget the rope here. Regards, Norman.

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I put a couple of things to you Norman, it is true that breeders are rarely open about problems. This is not because of the critique from the buyers, it is more to protect themselves from the other breeders who are more that willing to drag others through the mud.

How is this problem solved?

Temperament, if there 20 breeders, each will say that their dogs have the correct temperament, each of the dogs will almost certainly have a unique temperament. There is no point in discussing this, each will say that they are right and the others are wrong.

Shaun

[nepstein]

Shaun you are correct some breeders will use negative information offered regarding breeding failures to disparage. That said every breeder must ask him or herself can my reputation withstand this negativity and more important does my interest supersede the welfare and interest of the breed’s. To acknowledge ones love of the Boerboel can be made effortlessly, if there is little or no sacrifice necessary in professing that love. Our breed is in very poor shape and the reasons are many but unless breeders know in what breeding direction to go, this breed will implode as all others have whose breeders were kept in the dark as to the genetic recessives in a dog or line. For one, David Harris has been quite open as to his breeding failures and it has not hurt him in the least. To that end Dr. Belkin, who was an evolutionary biologist who specialized in physiological and ethological ecology under a Research Fellowship at the University of Florida Medical School,wrote
" We shall all have to rise above our own narrow individual interests and perspectives if we are to save our purebred dog world from genetic disaster".
Presently our breeders, for the most part, operate as if they were feudal lord’s, and that must change if this breed is to prosper.

Shaun wrote in part:
Temperament, if there 20 breeders, each will say that their dogs have the correct temperament, each of the dogs will almost certainly have a unique temperament. There is no point in discussing this, each will say that they are right and the others are wrong.

You are correct that each breeder has there own definition of correct temperament and coincidently it is usually the temperament of the bulk of there breeding stock. But you are not correct in maintaining there is no point in discussing the parameters of correct temperament. If the Boerboel was not a working breed I wouldn’t care but that is not the case. A good beginning would be for you, as a very large breeder, to respond my question that was previously asked and it was, IYO what abilities, if found to be deficient, should preclude a Boerboels from breeding. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Ewa I find no test silly, that helps validates the stability of our breed. Good work and look forward to what's ahead. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Jeffrey Bragg, author, Purebred Dog Breeds into the 21st Century. and co-founder, Seppala Siberian Sleddog Project www.seppalasleddogs.com wrote the following and it is IMO a must read.

I have noted with interest this dialogue on "diversity breeding" versus the showdog fancy. I would have thought that the very puzzlement and uneasiness expressed by those espousing the dog show ethos would alert a realistic mind to the possible existence of a basic contradiction. Whenever we encounter an apparent logical contradiction, we have to check our premises. As subsequent dialogue has revealed, one weak premise is that form can somehow create function; it is easy to explain how function creates form, but I have never heard anyone give a credible explanation of the reverse. Usually a "blueprint" is referred to -- which also emerged in dialogue here. The argument rests on a specious identification of what its proponents call "Nature's blueprint" (referring to the DNA code) and the "Breed Standard." Such identity is imaginary. The two have little or nothing to do with each other, function in very different ways and in any case, despite the label, neither constitutes a
"blueprint," which is in effect an engineering drawing to exact scale coupled with exact materials specifications. ;-)

Breed standards, at their best, are descriptive. (At their worst, they are exercises in wishful thinking.) But most dog breeders take their breed standards to be PREscriptive, which is where the trouble starts. You can write a breed standard to describe a particular variety of working dog (a sleddog, a desert hound for coursing hares, a gundog for finding, pointing out, and retrieving quail or partridge, etc.) reasonably well. You cannot use that same standard to reconstruct that same working dog from undifferentiated canine raw material, because as Belkin and others have pointed out, the most crucial aspects of working dog *ability* are not visible and therefore ill-suited to precise description in a breed standard.

The dog show process, AT BEST, relies on prior study of breed standards by a "judge" who then goes through a three-minute examination routine in a twenty or thirty-foot ring with a strip or two of rubber matting, with a view to determining and grading each individual dog's "conformation" -- that is, the degree to which its outward physical traits appear to conform to the description given in the standard. In practice, too many other things enter into the final result of that judge's evaluation: "showmanship," colour and markings, flashiness, handling, the judge's knowledge of other judges' decisions, and even (shudder) "the wrong end of the leash." However good or ungood the decision, it then goes into the AKC, CKC, KC or FCI pot, becoming a part of each dog's show record, determining whether the dog gets "points" or a Challenge Certificate (or whatever), and ultimately, whether it becomes a "Champion." And *in general* (with inevitable exceptions) the "Champion" label then
becomes a criterion of excellence for breeding purposes, influencing the next generation. And this -- somehow -- is supposed to guarantee function. This entire modus operandi may be traditional, but it is hardly logical.

Karen, some of us, whom you may see as at odds or even enmity with you, see NOTHING in the dog show process that will in any way contribute to the healthy preservation and advancement of our particular working dog breeds. I am one such person. And perhaps unfortunately, we sometimes carelessly generalise from our own specific breed knowledge and venture to preach to breeders of other breeds. Even the best of us here on this list are immediately on shaky ground when we thus depart from our own intimate knowledge of our own particular breed; most will admit this readily enough. On the other hand, some also see what we advocate for our own breeds as a threat to their own philosophy and praxis in THEIR breeds. Nevertheless, one of the best features of this list is the way in which it encourages comparative cynology. Relatively few breeders and fanciers know as much as they should about breeds other than their own.

In my own case (just as a concrete example of how some of the above plays out in practice), I simply see nothing that the dog show process could possibly contribute to the Seppala Siberian Sleddog. These dogs already, through their past breeding history (which has involved far too much forced inbreeding and genetic bottlenecking), have their "type" more than sufficiently "fixed." Their *form* is more than adequately determined by their intended function, which is that of a versatile multipurpose sleddog. Continued proving and mild selection for that purpose are quite sufficient to maintain both form and function. As a very small population, they stand to benefit considerably from whatever relief can be obtained from further inbreeding, by means of assortative mating and outbreeding; reducing too-high COI levels is a reasonable and worthwhile goal for the present. The replacement of lost genetic diversity by seeking out and breeding from landrace sleddog stock from the same
ethnic and geographic background is the major goal for the future (as is sheer survival).

I know of no way in which submitting these dogs to the dog show evaluation process might advance any of our goals or result in any significant improvement, when weighed against the known genetic risks entailed in that same process. That being the case, it is not a question of "enmity" but simply of irrelevance. I see dog shows as an idle and irrelevant pastime that would involve great risk and little benefit to Seppala Siberian Sleddogs should they become participants in it. From what I have heard, there are other breeds in which a substantial body of breeders and fanciers have drawn similar conclusions.

Perhaps some breeds are already so devoid of purpose or usefulness that dog shows have become the main justification for their existence. In their cases, trotting down twenty feet of rubber matting, standing in a perfect show stack, looking "showy" and impressive for all-breed judges will then be important components of their "breed purpose," or so one must presume. But that's so far out of my own sphere of interest that I'm probably not competent to comment further.

J. Jeffrey Bragg
The Seppala Siberian Sleddog Project
www.seppalasleddogs.com

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Hello Norman over the years we have been very open with the problems we have faced, when we told the world that it was not right that Boerboels were naturally free from HD (it was the then accepted arguement that the sick dogs were disposed of early in life and therefore the breed was clean), and we showed our PennHIP results that showed about 30% of Boerboels imported from RSA had HD, we were hung out to dry by other breeders. One of them, a well known breeder from Europe who was also a SABT appraiser, also wrote that it was only our dogs (in the whole world) that had HD.
When we went on the internet and told people of the infection some puppies get in the eye because the protecting layer does not entirely disappear, the consensus was that it was because we kept our puppies in dirty conditions, no-one had ever visited us and there was absolutely no truth in it, there have been several cases since and it apparently is a common occurence.
When a couple of our dogs developed vaginal prolapse in their first seasons, the consensus was that all of our females prolapsed.

My advice to all you budding breeders is to talk to those you trust, by all means share information privately and learn, but at the same time you have to be realistic and assume that whether you deserve it or not, there are some nasty minded people out there that will cherish the opportunity to drag you through the mud. The bare reality is that the (Boerboel) dog world is not ready for openess in that degree. Some of the very people that advocate sharing relatively dangerous genetic information, or including it in databases are the very worst to talk about other people behind their backs. That includes the very people that lead some of the Boerboel organisations in UK and Europe. If you share your information with them, I will guarantee that it will be misused to further THEIR interests.

"if found to be deficient, should preclude a Boerboels from breeding."
We look for lots of things;
clumsiness, this is usually a sign of deeper health problems.
overt visciousness
difficulty with birthing
too big an underbite
lack of willingness to guard (it is mainly used as an estate guardian in RSA)
Overt cowardly conduct, it is more natural to breed dominant animals.
Dogs that do not want to mate. There might be a natural reason we do not understand.
Too small dogs
Too large dogs
Too young dogs
Dogs without satisfactory health testing.
Dogs that are overtly anti social towards normal humans
Dogs that have developed no relationship with us.

I could go on Norman. No dog is perfect but there are some problems where you just have to draw the line.

Regards
Shaun

[buliebuse]

Hi Norman & Shaun
Please let me say thanks Shaun - you made me laugh.What is considered a normal human?
I agree with all the points posted & Norman I thought you only used Gordo as a stud dog & weren't actually a breeder?
As regards the BBs, breeders & owners I think if everyone was honest about the problems they have encountered along the way , without feeling the need to back bite the BB community would be a lot better off.
Regards
Ju

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:
My advice to all you budding breeders is to talk to those you trust, by all means share information privately and learn, but at the same time you have to be realistic and assume that whether you deserve it or not, there are some nasty minded people out there that will cherish the opportunity to drag you through the mud.

My advice is be honest about your breeding success and failures to all those who ask. The dog breeding and training business is not for the thin skinned so if some unfounded harsh comments are pointed in your direction, that’s just the cost of doing business and sleep at night at the same time. You wrote “I will guarantee that it (negative breeding information) will be misused to further THEIR interests. You may be correct but what about the interest and viable future of the Boerboel. Our breeding community must begin looking beyond there fence line if this breed is to succeed, as sunlight kills a lot of what’s wrong.

Shaun wrote in part:
The bare reality is that the (Boerboel) dog world is not ready for openess in that degree.

The bare reality is many of the Boerboel breeders may not be ready, but the Boerboel breed sure in the hell is ready and in fact it is far past ready. How many needless personal tragedy’s must we endure or posts must we read regarding cripple Boerboels and or mentally unsound Boerboels before breeders decided to crawl out from under there rock of secrecy? In fact it’s getting pretty crowded under there as our breed associations hide under it, most of our breeders hide under it, but few complain because all have the same goal, and that is to keep what is necessary in order to have this breed prosper in the hands of as few as possible, tragically believing if mine are healthy and others are not, I win. Myopic breeders, because of there skewed perception of winning, may the short run have success, but the Boerboel in the long run will not. This code of silence among breeders is today the most toxic form of the many poisons affecting the Boerboel. Every breed should IMO have a motto and ours should be “ Dam the breed and full speed ahead, that is until we run out of road, and then we’ll find a new breed”. Regarding your list of breed deficiencies that would preclude you from breeding a particular dog, I think this is a very inclusive list for any pet or show breeder. I know you take issue with the term pet breeder, however I don’t given that 98% of the Boerboels bred today will end up on a couch and IMO those folks deserve a sound dog. Because I am a working handler, to your list I would add, dogs that showed little or no work ethic and or dogs that had insufficient drive and dogs that showed a lack of courage. To that end I noted that you listed as a deficiency a dog that showed “Overt cowardly conduct” Why in your opinion must the lack of courage be *overt* before it is considered a deficiency, given one of the primary reasons given for this breed is to guard and protect. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

Ju sorry for the late reply but I'm still recovering from the fact that you agreed with me on something (g) Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Then we will have to agree to disagree Norman. We do not live in a perfect world and Boerboels are far from perfect regardless of what some breeders might inform. There is a lot of information available to the person that asks, providing they ask from the correct scource. The person that does not ask will learn for themselves.

Shaun

[buliebuse]

Hi Shaun & Norman
I agree with you Shaun as regards all BBs not being perfect - if they were, God that would be boring.We knew & Paul is completely honest with all prospective puppy owners that his 'line' is sharper than the average.I'm sure he wont mind me saying that.
On the other hand Norman we have put a lot of time , money & hours into our dogs - but even though very guardy when on their own territory , are 'couch potatoes'.
Could not afford, with the amount of kids that come in & out of all shapes , sizes & colours to have a dog that doesn't respect the fact that if I am in I am in control etc.If I am not in & as I never lock doors & someone tried to get in that is their problem.
The only warning I have is in my window "Beware of the goldfish" LOL ;D
Regards
Ju
PS I hope you've managed to pick yourself up off the floor after I agreed with you!

[nepstein]

Ju wrote in part:
"On the other hand Norman we have put a lot of time , money & hours into our dogs"

Your above begs the question, who is the "we" to which you refer, and exactly how are the admittedly many hours you spend with you dog apportioned. Moreover do you share Shaun's rationale for secrecy? Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post Norman, I do not advocate secrecy, I advocate that people are careful who they deal their information with. Over the years you get to learn about who to talk to and who to keep out of the loop. When people talk to us about problems with their dogs, and they do, they can do it with the knowledge that we would never tell anyone about the conversation or its contents. We help those who ask us for help and then we do not tell others where the information came from.

This encourages the exchange of information, people know that they can share their problems and get a share of the answers without being hung out on the internet or used to further someone elses interests. It has nothing to do with secrecy other than the names of the people involved. We are the focal point, and although we freely discuss ailments and illnesses with anyone who asks, we never disclose where that information came from or which dogs have the problems, regardless of who might ask, that sort of information is irrelevant.

Shaun

[nepstein]

The results of your, "My advice to all you budding breeders is to talk to those you trust" does in fact preclude those who don't know you from obtaining critical breeding information in your possession because they haven't gained your trust. Again Shaun anyone can find reasons not to do what is difficult but understand excuses for not sharing, critical breeding information with the world, is one of the main reasons the Boerboel is in a state of decline. The relevance of that fact should end this discussion but for reasons that elude it has not. Of course there would be little need for any of this if our breed stock was vetted, as all serious working breeds are, by strenuous testing or work because if a dog was not mentally and physically sound it would break down in training and its mental and physical faults would become evident in that work or by testing. But for the most part it is not vetted in such a way and won't be for the near future. Regarding breeding information for the public, that can only be had from an appraisal and such information is aimed at beauty breeders. Any information gathered there is, for all intent and purpose, useless for a responsible breeder i.e., breeding for all of the traits assigned to this our working breed such as character, movement, mental soundness, agility, correct temperament, biddability, work ethic, and courage. The Boerboel and its breeders are growing exponentially. This means, in the case of the Boerboel, all over the world there more new breeders on top of other new breeders and more are coming on line every day, and I would hazard a guess that most of those don’t know or care about you or me and because of this communities reticence in sharing, understandably they are making poor breeding decisions. Because of those decisions they are producing many substandard examples to be sold to other new breeders and so it goes and with them the Boerboel. Assuming they give a d**n and want to know the right way to breed, where do they go in order to find out what they need to know? They can go to the appraisal results if they are breeding for the standard but what if they are breeding for the most difficult traits to identify and maintain, those that you can't see. I can tell you that no breed in history has prospered when breeding information is held back for any reason. The Boerboel alone can not withstand the tide of secrecy and remain viable. Does that mean anything to anyone? Regards Norman

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I personally do not think that the Boerboel is in a state of decline, in fact I will venture to state that never before in the history of the boerboel have so many people been so interested and so active in the health of this race.
Your attitude towards sharing negative information about the dogs does not surprise me, for the first I am sure that you would be one of the first people to use this information in your arguements that support your "working dog" theories, secondly you have been very pro some of the very people that would also misuse the information.

As for people making bad decisions because of lack of information about problems, hogwash. We never had that information available and we have done quite well. Moreover, the information is now available freely all they have to do is ask.

And no, it doesn´t mean anything, all breeds have their negative contingent just as Boerboels do. The same rules apply everywhere and not just in dog breeding, the few rotten apples spoil everything for everyone. and nobody is totally open because negative people make it too difficult to be that. What we do, exchange info on a need to know basis is only second best to an open dialogue, but an open dialogue is too prone to misuse.

Shaun

[nepstein]

Shaun wrote in part:
I personally do not think that the Boerboel is in a state of decline

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I can certainly understand why you embrace it, but the facts say otherwise. I can just hear you now; you don’t have the data to make such a claim. Shaun I don’t need the data attendant to the Boerboel because I have the data on other pure breeds whose breeders select breed stock the same way as an overwhelming majority of our breeders do, and the results, and I am being kind, are distressing. Below is some of that data assembled from an article titled "Should Crufts be Banned” www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2007/03/07/ftcrufts107.xml&page=1 written for the Telegraph by Beverley Cuddy editor of Dogs Today magazine, that seems to refute your contention regarding the Boerboel. I have other data and will provide same if requested. Again from that article.

"There are just over 200 pedigree breeds in Britain and, shockingly, more than 150 of them have significant hereditary diseases".

"There are now more than 30,000 genetic defects identified in pedigree dogs, with a new one being discovered every month. As well as the inevitable in-breeding caused by the cult of pedigree, dogs' health has been further challenged by the peculiar fashions and foibles of the show world, which has kept "improving" the appearance of breeds. The Bulldog is the obvious example of a breed changed almost beyond recognition. Show judges began to favour a massive head, so it grew ever larger, unchecked. However, the pelvis remained the same size, meaning Caesarean births became the norm. Almost every breed has been changed to a degree - the Chow used to have fairly normal eyes, but the judges took to favouring tiny eyes, with devastating results. Many Chows now have to have their painful in-growing eyelashes removed. The judges liked the Dachshund to have a longer back and shorter legs - unsurprisingly, spinal problems resulted. It has not taken long for 100,000 years of breeding for function to be undone. (Sound familiar?)"

"If you wanted to breed from a dog that's deaf, blind, crippled with hip dysplasia or suffering from a heart condition, you'd probably expect the Kennel Club( or many our breeders organizations) to refuse to take your money. Sadly, you'd be wrong".


"Over the past 50 years, our pedigree breeds have been growing increasingly unhealthy, life expectancies have fallen drastically and some breed characteristics have become exaggerated almost beyond recognition. For example, the Bernese Mountain Dog, a breed that increasingly suffers from cancer, is now lucky to reach the age of seven. The Irish wolfhound, selectively bred for its massive size, has been left susceptible to bone cancer and has a similar life expectancy. Your average mongrel will live two or three times as long".

But all is not lost as the Swedish Kennel Club as stepped up with some needed reforms that will help stem the decline in our show pure breeds, They are not perfect but are better than silence and the everything is OK and getting better so don’t worry be happy syndrome, to wit:

Twenty or more years ago the Swedish Kennel Club decided to reform its practices and made health tests mandatory. It also ensured that breeders took notice of the results by simplifying the complex systems of testing for hereditary diseases, so people had clear guidelines on what to breed with what. It even came up with ways of ensuring the breadth of the gene pool was preserved by establishing quotas so that no stud dog could be overused - unlike in Britain and America, where a top winning stud dog can sire an unlimited number of litters, meaning that almost every dog in the breed can end up a half brother or sister.

Shaun wrote in part:
I will venture to state that never before in the history of the boerboel have so many people been so interested and so active in the health of this race.

That in fact may be true given the effort in the past to improve health was almost nil. Ipso-facto the bar was pretty low. Therefore for those who share Shaun's rosy outlook, I would suggest for you to wake up and smell the Rosettes (g). Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Hi Norman
The 'we' is myself & my 'current' husband & children.
I am with Buse 24/7, she is my companion & best friend.(She doesn't talk back or disagree LOL)
No I have to say the 'secrets' that are about in the BB world really peeves me off - not only with breeders but with owners as well.
I was brought up never to tell a lie - perhaps being honest doesn't always get you what you want, just agro, but what the heck.
Regards
Ju
PS You still haven't confirmed if you are an actual breeder.

[buliebuse]

Sorry Norman
Didn't fully answer your question.
Buse comes everywhere with me - but I only do training with her for a couple of hours a day. The rest of the time is fun or sleeping - for both of us. Obviously now that the hot weather is upon us it is contained between 5am-7am & 9pm-11pm for walks , training etc.
Have recently managed to get her into Mum & Dads pool which is indoors & she can swim against a 'Fluvo', but gets no where.It cools her down nicely & puts no strain on any joints .
Regards
Ju

[nepstein]

Ju wrote in part:
"You still haven't confirmed if you are an actual breeder".

Ju, if by "actual breeder", you mean, have I ever permitted my dog to cause *a litter of pups*, then yes then yes I am a breeder, pups being the operative term. That said I am very impressed with the amount of time you devote to training. In my 35 years of training dogs I have been all over the world observing other dog trainers, that don't do it as a profession, and very few of them devote two hours every day for training, I know I don't, but then myself and other schutzhunders ask a lot from our dogs i.e., obedience tracking and protection. Great work. Regards Norman

[buliebuse]

Hi Norman
I don't do it as a profession - but am lucky in the fact that I have so much time on my hands.(Am constantly being used as a 'stool pigeon' by trainers with difficult dogs that haven't been properly socialized) Only bitten once but had 2 pairs of gloves on at the time.Buse enjoys & so do I.It is always varied games I play with her, if I get bored with something that is tedious etc then I'm sure Buse would feel the same.It does not always involve taking her out for long walks etc - I don't think particularly in this weather that would be a good thing.Games such as 'magicians' would play , 3 pots up the top of the garden with her favourite toy under one of them.A piece of steak on each paw when in a down stay & not touching until I give the OK , & of course the swimming.
Rest of the day/night is taken up with training the children & hubby - infinitely more tedious LOL!
Latest game is to bark & growl at my water lillies if they move in the pond- so am working on that.Its amazing how skip lorries, buses etc don't phase her but this year something as stupid as a flower floating does!
Regards
Ju

[mayahund]

Jul 23, 2008 14:24:48 GMT Shaun Eric Ewing said:

Perhaps you misunderstood my post Norman, I do not advocate secrecy, I advocate that people are careful who they deal their information with. Over the years you get to learn about who to talk to and who to keep out of the loop. When people talk to us about problems with their dogs, and they do, they can do it with the knowledge that we would never tell anyone about the conversation or its contents. We help those who ask us for help and then we do not tell others where the information came from.

This encourages the exchange of information, people know that they can share their problems and get a share of the answers without being hung out on the internet or used to further someone else's interests. It has nothing to do with secrecy other than the names of the people involved. We are the focal point, and although we freely discuss ailments and illnesses with anyone who asks, we never disclose where that information came from or which dogs have the problems, regardless of who might ask, that sort of information is irrelevant.Shaun

When I had my first bb Maya, it wasn't very easy to obtain information about the breed in any way. There was an American/SA messboard but not a very informative one back then.

I had many and different problems with Maya and in order to find out what the heck was going on I talked to another Scandinavian breeder (NOT Anasha). This resulted in me getting info back that he was going around at an appraisal telling everybody that wanted to listen about me, my dog and what a nutsty breeder the breeder I bought Maya from was. Do I need to say that it didn't make me very happy to hear!

I don't mean that the problems I had with Maya in any way is a secret, I don't mean that my original breeder in anyway should be protected from people knowing she sold bad dogs either but I don't like it when breeders use the things you tell them as firewood against competition (however bad the original breeder is!) without my agreement to do so.

Unfortunately I see this happen all the time!

Ewa

[nepstein]

Ewa I’m sorry about the problems you had with your Maya but unfortunately, given our breeds relatively small population, like problems are far too common. Maybe if we had a more open climate regarding genetic issues, your Maya might have been healthier or if you had relevant information your decision as to whether you would have purchased from that particular breeder, might have been altered. There is an old saying that the only thing two breeders can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong. That said you can’t have it both ways. By that I mean your may desire that the breeder not be protected regarding there poor breeding practices but at the same time want those same breeding practices to be made known only with your permission because someone may use that information against the breeder. Maybe you could have used that kind of information. There are no clear answers and there is no perfect solution but that aside, this we do know, secrecy has never benefited any pure breed to date. I think we should begin with that fact and go forward. Regards Norman

[nepstein]

For all of you folks, and you are many, who get weak at the knees when you see a picture of a large i.e., overweight, young dog please the following abstract of one of the many studies that report that diet (being overweight) has a profound influence on the onset of DJD in dogs that already have the genes www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16948575 . This study showed that leaner dogs from the same litter had significantly less DJD. Because DJD is polygenetic there has not yet been a successful effort to eliminate DJD by just eliminating affected dogs from a breeding pool. Lessen yes, eliminate no. By the way leaner means a thin dog and not one that is just not fat. Regards Norman